"Trust method" suppressor

BCI

To avoid the "Abuse of power" commonly experienced by individuals seeking the CLEO sign-off, Our Governor in Utah has made the statement that Utah is an NFA friendly state! Although it still costs a few bucks, we are able to go to the BCI (Bureau of Criminal Identification) and get fingerprints and the Signature in under an hour for about $13. I do like the idea of not waiting six weeks for form 4 to come back though! I may try the trust thing next time! Between the $16 I paid Kinkos for my photos and the $13 for prints, I can pay for the software in one submittal! The NFA craze is pretty amazing here in the Salt Lake Valley! Who would have known how many folks have no problem blowing $15-20K on a Registered sear (with free HK rifle) or Steyr AUG! We have a couple shops Dedicated to tactical weapons and machine guns! You won't find any Hunting rifles there!
 
Please also be advised, that when you pick up an NFA item from your dealer (F1s don't do this, of course) you are required to do a 4473 on it with your personal information. You must present your driver license or other acceptable form of ID. The dealer checks "No NICS check was required because the transfer involved only NFA firearms" Question 22 on Page 2 of the Form 4473 so he doesn't need your CCW.

In addition. ATFE Form 4473 States in “Instructions to Transferee/Buyer”, Number 2.:

“When the buyer of a firearm is a corporation, company, association, partnership or other such business entity, an officer authorized to act on behalf of the business must complete Section A of the form with his or her personal information, sign section A, and attach a written statement, executed under penalties of perjury, stating: (A) the firearm is being acquired for the use of and will be the property of that business entity, and (B) the name and address of that business entity.”

I have a form made up in Word that I print and hand to the purchaser of an NFA device, which details the above instructions, and constitutes a statement, executed under penalties of perjury, and describing the Business entity and their position within same to satisfy those requirements.

(If anyone wants it, just email me and I'll send it to you)

I meet Dealers/Mfgrs all the time who say "What 4473. I just handed him his approved F4 and sent them on their way."

If, in the future, ATF/NFA decides to "ping" us on these Trusts, I think that's where they'll start, in that the Dealers are not asking the Transferee to sign the statement which is required, and it puts the Dealer and the Transferee in a legally vulnerable situation.

D.
 
Sorry, but I'm late to this thread.
Transfers to another trust would incur new tax stamps.
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I suspected as much. However, my understanding is that an NFA weapon can be inherited without paying for a new tax stamp, although the heir still has to go through the Form 4 process. Could the weapon be left to the trust?
 
although the heir still has to go through the Form 4 process
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Merely a technicality, but it is a Form5 which is an application for tax-free transfer.

I don't see why it couldn't be left to a trust.
 
It can be left in the trust but for you to take possession, you have to be named in the original trust. The form 5 allows you to do the tax free transfer to yourself as an individual or to another trust; however, you still have to go through all the paperwork to get to that point.
 
two hundred

I think you should figure 200 bucks every time you do anything with your weapon....!

Telsa
 
Question: if your CLEO in the area is unfriendly to NFA stuff but you use the trust method to get around them, do they get notice that you've made the purchases? Do they get a list of owners in their area?
 
Quicken Gun Trust

I have seen many of the trusts created by quicken and other software. Although it will accomplish your desired result of acquiring the Class 3 weapons, you put your family and friends at substantial risk. In addition, I have noticed that most people with these trusts pay the dealer directly instead of taking the proper precautions of creating a trust bank account and using the trust to complete the transaction. When you pay personally, you are at risk of the BAFTE stating that you made the purchase, and then transferred the item to the trust, 2 yes 2 violations of the NFA.

Your trustee needs special powers that are not granted by quicken, they need the ability to say not to an asset transfer, and need to be required to do a new form for upon a subsequent transfer. In addition they may need to comply with your state laws, Florida has no additional state laws dealing with Class III items, but there needs to be custom language in many places in the trust to protect the successor trustee or eventual beneficiaries of the items.

what happens if your beneficiary is a minor, or something happens to them and you would never give them a gun, who can or will make those decisions.

Be very careful using a generic trust as you are potentially putting your family and friends at a substantial risk of criminal and civil liability. You should speak to a gun lawyer in your state to find out more of these issues. most will not charge to speak to you.
 
In Quicken, when it asks for property to be held in trust, what are you guys putting? Are you putting descriptions including serial numbers, or just something like "NFA related items"? How do you later add items to the trust?

I already have a trust set up for property and other assets, and I want to make a separate one that I only use for NFA stuff.
 
Well said Florida Gun Lawyer.

That is one of the reason that I went with the LLC instead of the trust. The LLC provides protection of your personal assets, whereas a trust will not. If you use your personal checking account to purchase something for the trust or in the name of the trust, you just linked you personal assets with the trust.

Using an LLC (which is a legal entity unto itself) protects your personal assets. There is a yearly filing fee ($50.00 in Florida after the $99.00 LLC fee) and there will be a transfer fee if the LLC decides to transfer the Class III item to an individual or other legal entity (which happens anyways), but the cost involved are far less than your personal assets being taken from you in case you get sued. While the LLC's assets will be fair game, if all the LLC owns is a couple of Class III items, so what, at least you won't loose your house.
 
waterhouse:

In Quicken, when it asks for property to be held in trust, what are you guys putting? Are you putting descriptions including serial numbers, or just something like "NFA related items"? How do you later add items to the trust
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i know this is an old topic but i don't see any sense in making a new one when i can just use this one.

but nobody really answered that question., and now im stuck at that point.

also would i use the basic living trust>pick state>shared or basic living trust>pick state>individual? if i go the first route would there be two grantors? i am married just trying to figure out what is best way

thanks
 
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Be sure to include the new NFA item(s) to the trust before mailing in the forms and the copy of the trust.

You can always add items to the trust just by adding them to the list; cars and real estate property require additional steps.

You can also remove items from the trust; other than NFA items. Never remove them until they are sold and the new owner has his/her stamp in hand.

You can also grant others access to the items by making them trustees of your trust; even if only for a temporary basis.
 
so i am assuming that i would have to purchase it from the dealer first so i can get all the information from the product to add to the list then i send it in right?
 
No. I set up my trust with a blank copy provided from a gun store (for free). I have my suppressor on my trust. The problem with the CLEO sign off is, if you want to move your can over to your trust at a later date, you will have to pay another $200 to do so.
 
I think that you are putting your family into risk and trouble by using the Quicken Will maker software for making the revocable living trusts. You should better consult your lawyer for that
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