Trump looking to increasing rifle age purchase limit.

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I think that a separation of age limit between bolt action rifles and semi rifles is over due.

I don't think a raised age limit will solve all problems, but it can't hurt.

I don't think it will buy the 2A camp any allies when the next shooting happens with semi auto pistols, pellet guns or bolt action rifles but it's the first "sensible" gun law I've heard--not a blanket ban for no reason related to the facts of an incident but a raised age requirement for a device that should have a more thoughtful driver at the helm.
 
You cannot fool-proof life. The next school shooter is out there,and it will happen again.
And no law that they pass will stop it.
Fires in public buildings used to be a major concern.I have never heard of a modern fire tragedy in a public school.
That's because the school itself is protected against fire. And it did not require outlawing matches and Bic lighters.Non flammable construction,sprinkler systems,fire exits and drills,inspections. We invest in fire safe schools. That is the answer.
Drive by your local schools when the weather gets nicer.Count the doors propped open. So much for one secure entrance. The teachers defeat the security strategy for an open door.
Gun laws on top of gun laws have been ineffective,and they will continue to fail as long as government agencies,like the Air Force with the domestic violence discharge and the FBI with this Florida shooting. Columbine,plenty of forewarning. Nidal at Ft Hood was a known problem.
My tinfoil hat opinion,? I'm convinced Fast and Furious was designed to create international tragedy and outrage in Mexico to facilitate a restrictive arms treaty.Another attempt to defeat the 2A. Loss of life in Mexico? A shrug,and "By any means necessary"
It does not matter what laws you have,if they are enforced by bureaucrats who don't take action,they will be ineffective.
After the revelations of late regarding the politicization ,corruption,and weaponization of federal agencies,I would not put anything past them.

I'm not making any accusation of conspiracy,but my confidence in our political figures is so low that it would not surprise me a bit ,not one bit,if the decision was made to just do nothing to prevent the school tragedy. I'm not suggesting the shooting was planned,but the "ball dropping"may have been a political decision.
Let it happen for the political fuel going into the election. Sorry,but our Fed Gov't agencies and politics have earned that lack of confidence

Bump stocks? I think bump stocks are a stupid way to waste ammunition. I think laws against bump stocks are a political waste of time. A distraction.
IMO,if anything,while the bump stock made more noise and terror,I don't know that the tragedy at Los Vegas would have been less if there were no bump stocks.

18 years old? I'm thinking the status of 18 year olds is a broader subject.Its not a gun thing.I do not think politicians should be able to pick and choose a cafeteria menu of 18 year old privileges to suit political agenda.

If you can say an 18 year old has to register for selective service,and can die on the beaches of Normandy,or Iwo Jima,or at the Chosin Reservoir,Mogadeshu,Khe San,or Falluja be sent on multiple deployments to the Middle East,or some unknown assignment in Africa,..or if they can hold a loaded rifle guarding a nuclear armed B-52 ,wintertime,in Minot,North Dakota.then they are old enough.
AND if they are still kids, if they are not old enough,lets stop sending them to war till they are 21

If they are not mature and responsible enough to buy a rifle,they are not mature and responsible enough to be an easily manipulated voter. Raise the voting age to 21.

And if an 18 year old can get married and start a family,don't tell them they have no right to be armed to defend that family.
Or,take marriage away till 21.

Its not about tipping the next election with angry 18 year old voters. That is the political game being played.
It disgusts me.
 
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HiBC said:
If they are not mature and responsible enough to buy a rifle,they are not mature and responsible enough to be an easily manipulated voter. Raise the voting age to 21.

And if an 18 year old can get married and start a family,don't tell them they have no right to be armed to defend that family.
Or,take marriage away till 21.

Its not about tipping the next election with angry 18 year old voters. That is the political game being played.
It disgusts me.
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I agree. If the sentiment were genuine that 18, 19 and 20 year olds were so irresponsible that they should be prohibited from buying the device related to an explicit civil right, we should also allow them to annul contracts made prior to 21 and prohibit them from voting.

I suspect that the sentiment isn't genuine, but that this three year population is seen as small enough that treating them as less than full citizens will have little political consequence.
 
It might actually be a good thing to raise the minimum age for marriage to 21.

Life has changed.
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I'm all for this. A lot has changed. But if we are raising the age of majority it must be applied to everything: VOTING, civil contracts, military service, police service, TRUCK rental, etc.

We are telling kids they are not old enough to buy and responsibly use a firearm but they are welcome to join the military, become police officers, take out tens of thousands of dollars in student debt, vote for individuals in charge of our police and military, enter marriage, and various other major life changing decisions.
 
I'm all for this. A lot has changed. But if we are raising the age of majority it must be applied to everything: VOTING, civil contracts, military service, police service, TRUCK rental, etc.
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I am not a fan of the 26th Am., but I would just leave this as a note that you will not be able to restrict the right to vote to 21 with ordinary legislation.


The desperate, urgent and emotional demand for solutions should be resisted simply because it is desperate, urgent and emotional. Those aren't the qualities of sound decision making.
 
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I am not a fan of the 26th Am., but I would just leave this as a note that you will not be able to restrict the right to vote to 21 with ordinary legislation.
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You should not be able to restrict any rights, particularly those protected by the Constitution, with ordinary legislation :). I think tying these discussions in regards to changing the age of majority in regards to gun ownership to voting serves a great illustrative purpose.
 
I am not a fan of the 26th Am., but I would just leave this as a note that you will not be able to restrict the right to vote to 21 with ordinary legislation.
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That's an entirely reasonable observation and statement.
Perhaps the 2nd Amendment should be given the same regard.
 
It isn't about their maturity level. It's about trying to provide separation (time and distance) from high school before someone can buy a rifle. Generally speaking after 3 years even a nut will move on from the events of high school and will be more concerned with what's going on in their life NOW. The danger of course is we might get more college shootings instead...

I throw this in with the legal age to drink being 21. It didn't stop all teenage drunk driving, but I think it put a good dent in it. The other reality we have to consider is these millennials just aren't as mature as their counterparts even 20 years ago. They come from the land of instant gratification, raised by their iphones and lack the skills to cope. Most of them think texting is the same as having a conversation and social skills!

On that note, I also believe they shouldn't be allowed to vote until 21 for many of the same reasons.

This video sums it up nicely.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc5x-EcvQYY
 
The other reality we have to consider is these millennials just aren't as mature as their counterparts even 20 years ago. They come from the land of instant gratification, raised by their iphones and lack the skills to cope. Most of them think texting is the same as having a conversation and social skills!
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The reality is that these kids come from a land where the WW2 and baby boomer generations destroyed the economy and world. You sent their jobs overseas. Made it so they need to work multiple jobs, both husband and wife, to barely live middle class. So yea, you could blame them for their instant gratification or you could blame the people that have created the economy they are forced into - no more pensions that you got, no good health care you got, no lower end jobs that paid the bills, etc.
 
Trumps tweets on the issue today:

I will be strongly pushing Comprehensive Background Checks with an emphasis on Mental Health. Raise age to 21 and end sale of Bump Stocks! Congress is in a mood to finally do something on this issue - I hope!

....immediately fire back if a savage sicko came to a school with bad intentions. Highly trained teachers would also serve as a deterrent to the cowards that do this. Far more assets at much less cost than guards. A "gun free" school is a magnet for bad people. ATTACKS WOULD END!

....If a potential "sicko shooter" knows that a school has a large number of very weapons talented teachers (and others) who will be instantly shooting, the sicko will NEVER attack that school. Cowards won't go there...problem solved. Must be offensive, defense alone won't work!
 
The reality is that these kids come from a land where the WW2 and baby boomer generations destroyed the economy and world. You sent their jobs overseas. Made it so they need to work multiple jobs, both husband and wife, to barely live middle class. So yea, you could blame them for their instant gratification or you could blame the people that have created the economy they are forced into.
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OK... there are always two sides to this. I agree with some of your points, but with many I do not. Middle class today is not the same as middle class in the 40's, 50's, and 60's. The standard of living has increased exponentially. Many men did backbreaking labor to put food on the table, and a 40 hour work week was not the gold standard. Sure, maybe for bankers and other white collar jobs, but the majority of American Baby Boomers and "The Greatest" Generation worked VERY hard, didn't have TVs, Cell Phones (or any phones), had 1 car for the whole family, at times had to kill and dress their own food, lived in very modest homes where very few had A/C, and in general only infrequently purchased items like clothes (when is the last time you sewed a patch in pants?), movie tickets, beauty products, meals in resteraunts, and many other items that are taken for granted these days. Yes politicians and businessmen in power from previous generations have created problems like increased national debt, the deficit, outsourced jobs, and other issues that plague younger generations now. I believe you misplace blame and paint older generations with a broad brush, when only a select few are actually responsible. To be fair, some older generations paint the younger generation with a broad brush. As follows...

The other reality we have to consider is these millennials just aren't as mature as their counterparts even 20 years ago. They come from the land of instant gratification, raised by their iphones and lack the skills to cope. Most of them think texting is the same as having a conversation and social skills!
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I know numerous fine, upstanding, and hardworking 18 and 19 year olds. My son is 23 and kept a full time job since he was 17. He's married to his high-school sweetheart. When it came time to get his "wheels" and freedom at 16 he was given a very modest car with strict rules and a strict warning... this is the only vehicle you will ever be given, you'll be given exactly enough gas money to go back and forth to school and no more. When he wrecked it, and I didn't run out to buy him another, he pulled himself up by his bootstraps. And he's made his way ever since. Many of his friends also have made their way well thus far in life, though many have not. Immersion in social media is, in my opinion, a problem to a degree. There is a loss of interpersonal skills, it does suck away time, and it often becomes a priority over other things that are way more important. It's the normal though. I held off on giving my oldest daughter a phone until she was 13... probably 95% of her friends had an iPhone for more than a year before she got one. I simply couldn't hold off on giving her one any longer as she was beginning to be the butt of jokes for not having one. I couldn't imagine having an iPhone at 13 growing up (though yeah, they weren't invented yet).


So the generational war serves us no purpose. Older generations have created current issues, but that wasn't every single member of that generation. The younger generation is different, and there are some technology aspects that I believe will ultimately cause more harm than good, but not all of the younger generation (or even most) are lazy, self-absorbed slobs who live in their parents basement until they're 35. We do a disservice when we try to paint this narrative on all millennials. Adam I didn't personally vote to make America what it is today, nor would I have.
 
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The reality is that these kids come from a land where the WW2 and baby boomer generations destroyed the economy and world. You sent their jobs overseas. Made it so they need to work multiple jobs, both husband and wife, to barely live middle class. So yea, you could blame them for their instant gratification or you could blame the people that have created the economy they are forced into - no more pensions that you got, no good health care you got, no lower end jobs that paid the bills, etc
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Really? What is a bit of a problem,you will get away with posting this,probably.
But if I,or others,do a proper rebuttal to your statement,then the Mods will appropriately tell us political arguments off topic.

I'd appreciate it if you could edit an "IMO" into the beginning of your statement.
I lived those times .Do you hate cars? My Mom came from a time they hitched a horse to a sleigh to go to town from the farm.
They did get a model T and a radio. I'm thinking young folks today would not handle the life they idealize very well.
Both my parents started at Casablanca March of 1943. They mosied on over to Bizerte,Tunisia.Then Sicily. On to Naples via the Arno River. Yeah,that Greatest Generation messed up the world.
Then they wanted their kids to have more than the one room rural turn of the century eighth grade education.
I went from having one of those good manufacturing machinist/toolmaker jobs with longevity,growth,education,benefits and a pension to an $8.97 an hour school custodian because my job went to China.
Its interesting who you assign that responsibility to.Perhaps your College Profs told you that.I don't know.
Most younger folks hiss and spit the word "Corporation" and anything the Government will do to regulate or take from the Evil Corporation is Justice.
My Evil Corporation job lasted 27 years. Took me from semi-skilled labor to having a highly skilled trade,via opportunity and education. It was a non-union shop. I get a small pension.I was paid more than the junior engineers,I had 4 weeks vacation,full bennies,etc. You get those working for an Evil Corporation,not so much making pizza.
IMO,(see how I do that) what drove jobs to China was the highest corporate taxes in the world,political zealot driven over regulation,and unions that demanded more than the business could deliver.
The old story about killing the goose that laid the golden egg.

Some of my generation did a lousy job of raising kids. As a result,youger folks eat Tide pods and run up enormous student debt getting degrees in Social Justice Anger.(In my opinion) They do not hold themselves responsible for a lack of marketable job skills.
A CDL will get you a job. A heavy equiptment mechanic will have a job.A welder will have a job.
A degree in Social Justice Issues,maybe makes pizza. I like pizza. That's fine.
 
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I'm 64 and still don't have an iPhone. May never. I have a hard enough time not tearing a flip phone to pieces around the farm.

You can come up with all kinds of reasons, but prior generations were simply forced to mature earlier by the needs of the time.

The insurance commercial where the two boys don't know what a lug wrench is may not be all that far off.

Painting with a broad brush 18 year olds now are maybe where 14 year olds were 50 years ago.

I know I had my first crop of tobacco before I was old enough to get a drivers license. Never had an "allowance" in my life. Bought my first new car when I was 18 and paid cash for it. 71 Nova SS .

World is different now.
 
I still don't carry a cellular phone of any kind.

ZeroJunk said:
World is different now.
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I believe this complaint is as old as antiquity. I learned Latin by having a teacher yell at me for an hour every day, and being required to yell the answers back. I learned to drive by sneaking my parents car out. I received my driver's license the week I turned 16. I yearned for the day, I could leave home. College was a vacation.

My little girls both spend a lot of time with their little screens. My 15 year old isn't interested in driving. When I ask what they wold want for a birthday, they can't think of anything.

Yet, maybe my life was simpler. I wanted to be strong and smart, but no one ever told me it would be OK to be stupid and weak. I will guess that you had a similar sense as a lad that what you should be (smart, honest, strong, reliable) involved goals endorsed by those around you.

Young people now don't have that in the same way. In some ways they are actively discouraged from taking personal responsibility and cultural confusion on a range of issues seems more pronounced now. I wonder how either of us would do in that mess.
 
We are getting into a debate about the how and why. We are holding up individuals we know as exceptions as some standard.

Are we actually debating, on a whole, that generations before had more responsibility given to them or expected of them at the age of 18 when compared to today's current 18 year olds?

Look at the age of first mortgages, marriages, "full-time" jobs, car purchases, insurance purchases, etc. I'm not trying to debate the why or who is at fault. I can't believe that we are actually debating the premise itself because the premise can stand alone from the reasons it exists.
 
Lohman446 said:
Are we actually debating, on a whole, that generations before had more responsibility given to them or expected of them at the age of 18 when compared to today's current 18 year olds?
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I'm not so much debating it as I am noting the evergreen nature of what's with kids today! topic, and wondering whether focusing on the problems kids don't have today should be the exclusive lense through which to view the issue.

For men a full generation older than I am, men in their 80s now, early military or government service, drunk driving, and reasonably predictable vocational opportunities were features of an ordinary life.

I'm betting that ZeroJunk wouldn't trade the way he was raised for an iPhone and dirty looks from girls for the simple courtesy of opening a door for one, or not knowing how to call a person because my interpersonal communication happens exclusively by texts, or a workplace in which a person could loose his job if a coworker complained of a micro-aggression. I know I wouldn't make that trade.
 
I know I had my first crop of tobacco before I was old enough to get a drivers license.
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We are not very far from one another friend. Growing up on a tobacco farm will absolutely teach someone something about self-reliance and hard work. Many of the kids in my generation either had parents who farmed, or they worked barning tobacco in the summer. Most of us turned out ok and figured out how to pay our own way. I spoke with a tobacco farmer a few months ago about how I wish kids had the desire to work like we did growing up. Apparently, not only has farming been gutted and automated here, but labor laws have changed in such a manner that farms no longer get the exemptions for age and hour restrictions that they used to. The guy told me he had several teenagers try to get a job with him recently, but he couldn't really use them because of the laws and restrictions.
 
This thread was, from the beginning, similar to the NOT Gun Control thread, in that it was about actions the President may or may not take in regards to the Florida shooting.

Now it has devolved into which generation to blame and which generation is better.

Not having that argument here at TFL.

Closed.
 
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