True stories stopping man or beast

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I agree that the figures are skewed by special circumstances. Still I can't tell you how many times I hear police and suspect exchanging multiple shots without hits. Just recently here in Hillborough County an officer exchanged gunfire and yep missed. Tons just like this only in this area.


An Inverness police officer fired a shot at a fleeing suspect Sunday after the man took something from his back pocket that resembled a gun.

The suspect, Shane Andrew Little, 18, was not hit.
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The badguys are even worst it seems.
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I agree these statistics aren't terribly meaningful. What would be meaningful would be statistics related to hit rates for people that PRACTICE their gun skills (range, IDPA, etc.) versus those that don't...whether they're cops or not. I suspect you'd find a MUCH higher hit rate as evidenced by the video of the guy working the hotel desk that shot the robber...3 out of 3 hits while the guy was moving. Impressive.
 
Once outside, they both pulled out handguns, . . . one a .357 mag, . . . the other a .22.

The guy who got shot with the .357 died there in the street, . . . the guy who got shot with the .22 died an hour or so later in the hospital.

Conclusion: placement is what counts, . . . not caliber.
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Dwight
Your conclusion is non-sequiter...
It is reasonable to assume that both shooters hit the "ever-magical" center-mass. ;)

My story is...

My friend had had his hand and arm severely damaged in WWII by a 7mm Jap. from palm to elbow.
Therefore, he thought a .22LR would be sufficient for home defense...

He woke up in the middle of the night to sounds of illegal entry at his front door.

He grabbed his trusty .22 and headed for the front room and found two intruders...

One was blocking his view of the other...

He double-tapped the first one center-mass, at less than 10 feet, and the other one "quickity-split"...

After about two minutes... my friend called the police...

More minutes passed and he got an answer...
(There was no 911 line in those days and the response was a little better.)

10 more minutes and one squad car arrived with two LEO's...

After several minutes the two LEO's began looking around the neighborhood for the wounded perp...

After about 25 minutes of searching they found the perp hiding under a parked vehicle.

After that they "walked", (My friend said, "...not particularly in a hurry.") back to their car and called for an ambulance.

After about 8 or 10 more minutes the ambulance arrived and they talked with the police a little and loaded the perp onto the gurney. (My friend said, "...not particularly in a hurry.") and then they headed for the hospital which was at least ten minutes away...

The emergency trauma team "prepped" him for surgery... more minutes...
And after 8 hours of surgery he survived to be tried and sent to jail. He tried to sue my friend but in those days they had sensible judges... and the case was "thrown out of court". (Now there's a phrase you don't hear much anymore.)

My friend, knowing my experience with hand guns, told me this story and asked me to help him get a 1911 .45ACP. :)

Ya'll can draw your own "conclusions"... sequiter or not... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
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It seems to be that the hardness/shape of the skull bones doesn´t make head shots as effective as one would have thought, unless the shot comes at a very specific angle......
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What you want to do is hit between the upper lip and the top of the eyes, this area is soft tissue leading directly to the brain. No fancy angles needed, just good shot placement. Even a .22 will penetrate the sofe tissue there, although it won't make it out the back of the skull....
 
Alot of people throwing numbers around and talking of hits and such. For those that are unaware, it is completely different to hit perfectly in a non-dangerous, controlled environment, as to making perfect COM shots when your life is in critical danger, and bullets are flying around your ears.....not nearly as easy.....


As for oddest critter shot, was deer hunting, and had my 12 gauge loaded with slugs of course. Unknown to me, the first shell I loaded was a 00 buck load. Long story short, shot nice big doe. Fell almost in her tracks. When we checked her out, we couldn't find a wound ANYWHERE on her. Absolutely no reason for her to be dead. Upon much closer examination, we noticed one of her eyes was busted. 1 single steel shot (as near as we could tell) had entered her eye, and must have went directly into her brain.

Weirdest thing I have ever personally seen....
 
The SOB who shot up the post office in Royal Oak Michigan in 1991 was armed with a 10/22 which he obtained because of the then lack of background checks. He shot 10 people, and 5 of them died on the scene. I don't know how many shots he fired total, but in any case, that tragic and stupid instance is a good example of the lethality of any caliber of bullet.
 
The point is that if he'd used a 9 or .45 there would be more people dead.

It is also a point that the dead MIGHT have died faster.

Read the original message of the thread-start... PLEASE. :rolleyes:
 
Pointer wrote:

The point is that if he'd used a 9 or .45 there would be more people dead.
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How can you say that? That doesn't make sense. If he hit 5 people in the right spot to result in a kill, it doesn't matter if he hit them with a .22, .45, an rpg, or a freakin howitzer.....dead is still dead.

It would stand to reason that a .22 would give you greater range, more ammo capacity before reloading, and much greater accuracy due to little or no recoil.

So there is absolutely no fact to your statement that a larger caliber results in more deaths. :confused:
 
In reference to Mark Coats, he was tragically unlucky but also made one critical tactical error. Trooper Coats asked his murderer if he had any weapons. The murderer responded in the affirmative, but Coats didn't hear/listen. Such a small error, which any of us could have commited, cost a brave young life.
 
dead is still dead.
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There are only three ways a bullet kills...

Bleed out - requires time

Nerve center shock - incapacitates immediately

Destruction of vital organs - speed of death falls somewhere between the first two.

I can't help but wonder why the other 5 victims didn't die??

Please see my post #24 above


That's how I can say that... :)
 
What you want to do is hit between the upper lip and the top of the eyes, this area is soft tissue leading directly to the brain. No fancy angles needed, just good shot placement.
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Blackwater OPS,

How do you know that? I said almost the exact same thing awhile back and got into quite a debate with someone on this forum because he replied with this:
Then you were told by a person who enjoys blatant over-simplification or has an amazingly poor understanding of terminal ballistics.
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Actually this is what I said:
I was told once that a sniper will aim for a spot just below the nose and that will shut off a man like a light switch.
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And it turned into a not so nice discussion and I have not heard a peep out of him since. :confused: I know I was correct but I was just wondering where you got your information.
 
Pointer, while I am in agreement personally that a higher caliber weapon tends to be a bit more destructive percentage wise, (which is why I carry a .45) I can't honestly say that I know for a fact hitting a guy 2x com with a .45 would kill him any quicker than 2x com with a .22. I mean, it stands to reason that the .45 would kill more efficiently, but I couldn't call it an etched in stone fact. Not when people have survived both, for unknown reasons.

I just can't buy into the idea that a higher caliber weapon automatically results in more deaths.....
 
How do you know that?
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Well the way I said it, it is a medical fact. I am not claiming to know all possible results of such a shot, but the area I mentioned is "soft tissue", in other words not bone, and behind that is the brain. That is an objective statement, but as to it being an instant kill everytime or something, thats conjecture.
 
automatically results in more deaths.....
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I don think so either...:rolleyes:

I simply believe in taking every edge I can get...

That's why I want MOA... and bolt action... and non-shiny rifles... and camo quiet clothing... and a bigger drill when I'm looking for a gusher... :D :D :D
 
After following this thread I feel compelled to share my "real life experiences" about the effects of larger caliber weapons. Having witnessed many men shot during my two tours in Vietnam some with the M-14 (7.62/.308) the smaller M-16 (5.56/.223) and myself with the AK47 (7.62x39). I can say the larger round is definately more destructive. While the 5.56/.223 bullet enters the body, it quickly turns sideways after passing through only 4" of flesh, then breaks in two major pieces, as well as many smaller fragments. On many occasions shooting an enemy soldier with the M-16 did not kill as quickly as the 30 caliber weapons. Instead we would follow a massive trail a blood a few feet away from where the enemy soldier had been hit to find him dead from massive blood loss.
On the other hand the 7.62/.308, upon entering a fleshy target, the 7.62 bullet travels straight nearly six inches before the massive shock wave ahead of the bullet transfers incredible energy into the target as the bullet begins to tumble. Thus the bullet can exit before the maximum shock wave expansion can occur. The 30 caliber rifle bullets of this type are known to knock men down, and throw them off their feet back some distance and make an incredible wound. During my entire tour in country I chose to carry the M-14.
The 7.62x39 while not quite as devastating as the 30 caliber rounds is still quite deadly having an unusual tendency to remain intact even after taking unusual deviations upon contact with bone.
A remarkable story is about my son's father-in-law who was a medic with the 5th Special Forces Group when he was shot by a sniper behind the right ear and the bullet (a 7.62x39) exited thru the roof of his mouth! He recovered and returned to Vietnam for his second tour of duty. In fact he has written several books about his experiences in Vietnam including this one HERE.

Now as far as using a .22, well it's been known that "hitmen" have used .22's as the weapon of choice. Ya know, a couple in the ear or in the back of the head, up close and personal. That would do the job and not get real messy.

Riverrat66
 
Out in the country we all know all bullets can kill.

I hunt a lot, kill a lot of large animals. Most with a .22

Hunted wild pigs years ago with a pack of dogs, they would hold a large pig until Icould shoot him with my yep .22

I was about 11 or so when I got my first .22, a single shot, I went out and shot a deer, killed him one shot. Dad kicked my butt and took it away.

I am a big fan of the .22, love it, seen a bear killed with one. Tricky but it is done all the time.
 
Pointer.....point taken. :D :D

Markj, while I do believe in the killing power of the .22 and have hunted with it ALOT (and still do) for small game, I think I would want something a bit larger for....uhmm.....BEAR.....:eek:

Talk about betting your life on shot placement.....sheesh....:confused:
 
Well folks as an emergency vet I have seen a fair number of unlucky animals shot with a variety of weapons and I think that the following 2 conclusions apply:

1. Have an adequate round
2. Put it in an appropriate anatomic locations

The most memorable cases I have seen are:

1. Pit bull shot at close range between eyes --- weapon recovered by PD was a 357, however the bullet we recovered was a lead SWC, it had skimmed the bone and lodged under the muscles on top the head --- A target 38 load I suspect as I can’t imagine any serious 357 or 38 defense load doing that or not traveling further but then who knows, some damage to one of the eyes that required removal, adopted by a colleague of mine.

2. Pit bull (see a trend here) shot 3 times by PD with 40 cal service ammo, all 3 entrance wounds in the chest area, noting vital hit by any of them, 1 slug recovered from under the skin in the area of the abdomen (still have it sitting on my desk somewhere), animal survived with minimally intensive supportive care, no surgery required, had about 8 beer bottle caps in it’s stomach as an incidental finding on x-ray, barfed these up while in the hospital, found new home.

3. Yellow lab shot point blank in chest with 410 shot gun, patient again lived with minimal intensive care however required surgery after about 3 weeks of recurrent wound infection, the plastic shot wad was recovered from within the thorax, x-rays revealed a bird shot load and are very impressive as all of the pellets can be seen in the external thoracic muscles --- no appreciable penetration at all even from this close of a range. Animal adopted by the officer investigating the shooting who nailed the SOB in court.


So I’m sure my case selection is biased as a I don’t see the ones that die in the field, however I thought it might be interesting to some of you out there. Also of interest about 2 years ago I attended a seminar by an Army vet on their tramatology research --- you see time was that trauma surgeons looked at the size of a shock cavity that a given round made in gelatin and figured all of that tissue is toast and would take it out during the initial treatment if possible --- this lead to many radical surgeries that often produced a lot of disability and dysfunction and turns out was WRONG, tissue is surprisingly elastic and repairable and the size of the shock cavity means almost nothing --- to prove this they showed their experimental model which involved raising a flap of skin in a pig --- still attached and supplied by the pig’s blood vessels, shooting it, then stitching it back (basically a plastic surgery technique for experimental inquiry) and observing heeling --- they also had high speed photos of the shots – 223 would stretch and sling the tissue this way and that --- and in the end there would be local inflammation from the stretch damage and a 223 sized hole that healed rather well with appropriate treatment ---- I know it’s kind of looking at the whole thing from the reverse angle but I don’t know of a better way of illustrating that it’s going to be what anatomic structures are in the path of a projectile that determines it’s lethality --- which again leads back to use an adequate projectile and put it where it needs to be.
 
Talk about betting your life on shot placement.....sheesh....
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:D :D LOL

+1
skimmed the bone and lodged under the muscles on top the head --
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A LEO friend on the Oakland Motor Squad was called to a bar to pick up a violent drunk... Everyone on the force knew who this guy was and when he was sober he was a pretty nice guy... When drunk he was unmanageable.

He was so big that, more often than not, it usually took severl people to hold and cuff him and get him into the patrol car...

My friend arrived first with his fellow motor man and they waited for the backup... soon it became obvious that they could no longer wait and they attempted to cuff the drunk without additional help... whoops!

They did eventually succeed and the guy kept fighting even though he was cuffed... My friend slammed him against the nearest vehicle and couldn't hold him there... His partner was watching their "six" and could help very much..

So... my friend told the perp that he was going to knock him out if he didn't calm down... He had to knocked him one (I think he hit him his .357) and then told the drunk if he didn't calm down he was going to shoot him...

He said, "Oh Yeah?" and he tried to turn his head against the muzzle of the gun... Still no backup and these guys were very tired and surrounded by very
anti-cop "on-lookers" and he fired the .357 muzzle against hism skull and the guy crumpled...

My friend was very broken up about it because he didn't want to "reallY" shoot him but there he was...

When the ambulance came to take the guy...who was remarkably, still alive!! my friend insisted on riding with him to the hospital.

There was a hole in the back of his head and a hole in his forehead and blood all over the place... In the ambulance the drunk came to... :eek:

As it turned out the bullet had entered at just the right angle and followed the scalp over the top and busted out fron his forehead...

My friend and the drunk are "friends" on a first name basis to this day... some 25 years after he retired!

:cool:
 
The 30 caliber rifle bullets of this type are known to knock men down, and throw them off their feet back some distance...
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Absolutely and demonstrably incorrect and a physical impossibility.

If the recoil doesn't knock the shooter down or throw him "off his feet back some distance" then it can't do that to the person soaking up the bullet either.

This was tested with a "man-sized" pig carcass hung precariously from an easily dislodged toggle. The only firearm capable of making it "drop" (none of them even came CLOSE to knocking it backward) was a 12 ga shotgun. Even then, it just jiggled the carcass a tiny bit--just enough to dislodge it from the toggle.

At one point, four people were all shooting it simultaneously with various calibers (including a .45ACP Thompson on full auto) and it never even moved. A 30 cal rifle of some sort (.308 or 30-06) was tested--the carcass wasn't knocked back and didn't even fall.
 
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