TRTdone more in 6 months than NRA has in 100 years

What bugs me is that every BAD gun law that's come down the pike has been endorsed by the NRA, or by one of its spokespeople. I can't condone the compromising of our freedom. Will not give them any money to continue their defacing of our Constitution.
I think one of our problems is that we are afraid to be politically incorrect. On one message board, someone didn't want to call a gun a weapon! Because it sounds bad. Sounds violent. That's terrible! A gun violent? People, the 2nd is not about sporting purposes. It is about protecting our freedom, and oftentimes that includes violence. When some goofball asks me, "Isn't that thing dangerous?" I tell them, "I certainly hope so! What good would it be if it wasn't?"

------------------
"Vote with a Bullet."
 
I would remind some very narrow minded people here that if not for the NRA none of us would be able to own an AR15 in any shape, nore a pistol, or that wonderful hunting rifle you all love.. This all or nothing mindset is more dangerous than any Anti. Oh I agree that we can not back down. But if you think that the NRA has failed then you are a fool. Let me spell that out F O O L. Now by all means support the GOA, the TRT(although I think they make us look bad), and every other Gun rights group you can. But think before you spout off about the NRA.
 
Hmmm ...

I'm a founder of TRT (perhaps THE founder as I called together the original group way before we had the name), I'm still working on my Life membership in NRA (been a regular ol' member for years & years) & support Rocky Mtn Gun Owners (GOA's CO state affiliate) & they're about to start getting monthly checks.

One thing that TRT has done is get a bunch of people active (let's do that again) ...
a-c-t-i-v-e, as in actually participating in their own lives & government.

Quite the concept.

I'll not (now) go down the "what's the NRA done for me lately" path, but I will say that you, yes YOU, personally, have to get up off your our dead butt and actuallt participate in the political process.

If you don't speak, those who do get the last word.

I highly recommend "Confrontational Politics," by Senator HL Richardson, Ret. (Gun Owners Foundation, 8001 Forbes Place, Suite 102, Springfield, VA, 22151 (last info I have offa the copy I almost stole ;) )

YOU! Get active at your local level, at your city council, county level & at the state level.

If you're paying some mercenary to do your work for you, you're nothing but a pimp & deserve exactly what you pay for = someone elses loyalty - certainly not your own.

Sure, join the groups -= there is clout in #s, but, at the same time get off your own butt & do it yourself too.

"All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to remain silent." = somebody smarter than I (certainly & yes, I forget who).

TRT has shown quite a few that they dop have a voice & that they are not alone & don't have to "hide in the closet" anymore. It's gotten quite a few pumped & participating.

& that is exactly what we need to do.

& another quick edit (again) ... this whole thing has taken me way, way beyond my comfort zone. I detest speaking in public - but I do, I am scared to death of microphones - but I go into a local radio station & put on the headphones & do the talk-show bit (from time-to-time) & it scares the livin' $#!+ outa me - but I do. I'm about ready to do a weekly, live 1 hr internet talk show hosting (film at 11 ;)) & just thinking about it scares me to no end - but I will.

& you know why?

Because it's my responsibility, my job - because nooone else is saying what I, personally believe (well, sorta they are but I can't shut up either. hey, call it a quirk ;)). Simple as that & I'm afraid. I get stage-fright to no end ...

I'm afraid I'll screw up, or someone will take exception to what I say - on & on. I am simply not that good at it (in my own mind) and am afraid.

I am more afraid that if I do nothing at this juncture, what I am afraid of is so much less so than what will be.

[This message has been edited by labgrade (edited June 30, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by labgrade (edited June 30, 2000).]
 
Care to explain this comment
(although I think they make us look bad)

Are you speaking from the standpoint of having been at a rally or are you just spewing from your armchair.......

.
 
robnoel,

I find your holier than though attitude offensive. Some of us work two jobs to make ends meet. Our work schedules don't allow for travel or participation in rallies. Some of us contribute the best way we can, by joining pro-RKBA organizations. If you're desire to to slam the NRA you'll get no support from me. If instead you seek to work along with other pro-RKBA groups more power to you. A divisive attitude helps no one but the antis.

------------------
So many pistols, so little money.
 
Time to bring this one into focus a little bit.

This is very much the same argument that is occurring about the Republican Party and the direction it has taken of late. Would anyone disagree with that?

The central theme is that we must "appear reasonable" to those folks in the middle so we can "win them over to our point of view". We know we aren't going to get the lefties, but that soft center is very inviting so the play is made for those people. But it's being gone about in entirely the wrong manner. Think back a little.

Ronald Reagan was arguably the most conservative president we have had this century. There were plenty of things about him that I did not like (I was in middle and high school during his two terms, and was just starting to pay attention to the things going on in the world), but I would say, looking back comparatively, that he is among the top two or three at the very least. He ran successfully by taking strong positions and convincing the people of the country that he was right. He got a large portion of his agenda through a Democrat-controlled Congress by doing the same. He did NOT fight his battles by backing up. Quite the opposite, in fact. He was brash and unapologetic, and he was a winner in the arena because of it.

Contrast that with what the NRA has been busy doing for the last handful of years.

They do stop the occasional bill from coming to fruition. No doubt about it. No one has ever made the statement that they are ineffective when they want to get something done. But what about the myriad of little things that they do not oppose, or sometimes SUPPORT, that cut away at our rights a little at a time? The devil is oftentimes in the details. The NRA ought to be working toward incrementally restoring our rights, but it appears to be headed in quite the opposite direction at times, and sometimes at more than an "incremental" pace.

Just like the Republicans.
 
My apologies to the TRT. I misspoke that. The meaning was this. (Although I think some of them make us look bad.) It was badly written and I am sorry for that. I was not refering to the TRT in that. Sorry labgrade I really respect what you are doing. (this is what happens when one posts after a 16 hour work day)

robnoel I also find your attitude very offensive. If you are this outspoken against the NRA I am sure that HCI or VPC have a great position open for you.
 
robnoel I also find your attitude very offensive. If you are this outspoken against the NRA I am sure that HCI or VPC have a great position open for you.

I came from a country that many had your attiude......now it's run by communists...is that what you want......and what have I said that offensive.....if the truth is offensive to you....tough!

FYI...heres a list of folks who think the NRA sold out gunowners with "Project Excile"

This statement is endorsed by the following:

Anti-"Exile", Pro-Second Amendment Coalition Organizers

Brian Puckett President, Citizens Of America; Co-founder, GunTruths.com, Read Brian Puckett's statement on NRA Leadership.

Angel Shamaya Founder, Exec. Director, KeepAndBearArms.com

Russ Howard Exec. Dir., Citizens Against Corruption; Past NRA Director; Articles: Project Exile, or Project Gulag?, Observations on the 2nd Amendment Movement

Larry Pratt Exec. Director, Gun Owners of America

Anti-"Exile", Pro-Second Amendment Coalition Members

Aaron Zelman Exec. Director, Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership

Leroy Pyle President, Paul Revere Network; Past NRA Director; Founding Exec. Director, Law Enforcement Alliance of America; NRA Benefactor Member, NRA Law Enforcement Committee; NRA Firearms Instructor

Steve Silver President, Lawyers Second Amendment Society; Co-founder GunTruths.com; Second Amendment Attorney

Albert Ross Director, Texas State Rifle Association; Treasurer, Dallas Arms Collectors Association, Inc.; Past NRA Director & 2nd Vice-President

Nancy Herrington Executive Vice President Women Against Gun Control Georgia State Director - Women Against Gun Control

Sarah Thompson, M.D. Founder, Executive Director, Utah Gun Owners Alliance

Kevin Starrett Executive Director, Oregon Firearms Federation

Reginald Shinn State Chairman, California American Pistol & Rifle Association

Harry Schneider Chairman, Pennsylvania Sportsmen's Association

Gary S. Marbut President, Montana Shooting Sports Association

Larry Farrell President, Gun Owners of New Jersey

Tom Chandler Chairman, Capital District Shooters Committee On Political Education (SCOPE) NY's Largest Second Amendment Civil Rights Group

Ed Kelleher President, Grass Roots South Carolina

Paul Valone President, Grass Roots North Carolina

Dudley Brown Executive Director, Rocky Mountain Gun Owners

Bill Duff Legislative Chairman, Keystone Firearms Coalition [PA]

Jack Iannantuono Spokesman, Lehigh Valley Firearms Coalition representing nearly 20,000 second amendment supporters in eastern PA

John Harris Executive Director, Tennessee Firearms Association, author of "Carrying a Handgun for Self-Defense in Tennessee"

Barry Bright President, Free Kentucky

Jeff Chan President, RKBA.org

Larry R. Rankin Chairman, California American Pistol & Rifle Association, Santa Barbara County; Life Member, GOA, NRA, CRPA, LEAA, On Exile

Arthur "Art" Nichols President, N. Orange County NRA Members Council; NRA Life Member, Benefactor, On Exile

David Gross Founding Director, Past Pres., Minnesota Gun Owners Civil Rights Alliance; Former Chairman, NRA High-power Committee

Andrew E. Barniskis Legislative Chairman, Bucks County Sportsmen's Coalition [Pennsylvania]

John Birch President, Concealed Carry, Inc.

Geoff Metcalf, Chairman, VetoTheGovernor.org, Statement on Exile/NRA

Nancyann Rutledge President, Citizens' Gun Rights Alliance, (formerly the Santa Barbara NRA Members Council, decertified after refusing to support gun control and anti-gun candidates)

Bernie Oliver President, Brass Roots, Inc. [Arizona]

Bob Glass Tyranny Response Team

Mark Call, Tyranny Response Team

A. Nathan Zeliff Founder and President, SaveOurGuns.com

Jerry F. Phillips Founder and Director, GunsAndCrime.org

Ari Armstrong, Pro-Second Amendment Writer and Activist, CO-Freedom.com President

Claire Wolfe, author of books on freedom, proprietor of Wolfe's Lodge, armed and free female

David Codrea, Founder & Director, Citizens of America; Founder, GunTruths.com, Second Amendment Writer

Weldon Clark President, Second Amendment News

Melissa & Neal Seaman Co-Creators, Gun Control Victories Web Site, On Exile

Dave Edmondson Founder, State Association Coordinating Committee, 2-term NRA Director

H.S. "Gunnie" Reagan (M/Gny. Sgt., Retired-USMC) NRA Life Member and Patron Member; Member GOA, SAF, Deer Tribe Gun Club Founder, SASS, IDPA, USPSA, IPSC, Vietnam Veteran

L. Neil Smith Noted author, pro-liberty and pro-Constitution activist

J. R. Nyquist Author, "Origins of the Fourth World War", Archives

J.J. Johnson Editor-in-Chief, SierraTimes.com [noted internet news magazine]

Arnold Gaunt Utah Republican Party State Central Committee member; NRA Endowment member

Val Finnell, M.D. First President, Virginia Citizens Defense League, On Exile 1 / 2

Chris BeHanna Past Board Member, Coalition of New Jersey Sportsmen Life GOA & NRA

Frank J. Brady, President, The People United

Robert T Fanning, Jr., Founder of hunters rights group 4000 members strong, NRA member since 1962

Charles Curley, Founder, Wyoming Arms Rights Coalition; author; Second Amendment legal scholar; webmaster, Wyoming Libertarian Party

Clarence Lovell, NRA Board Member for 1980-1993, 1995

John Taylor, Editor, The Libertarian Enterprise

J. Neil Schulman, author, Stopping Power: Why 70 Million Americans Own Guns & Self Control Not Gun Control webmaster, The World Wide Web Gun Defense Clock

Donald E. J. Kilmer, Jr., California Attorney specializing in gun-related cases, Co-Sponsor and Author for California Coalition on the Right to Keep and Bear Arms

Richard E. Vaughn, Esq., Author, Second Amendment Attorney's Page

George Russum, President/Founder, Second Amendment Coalition of Florida

John A. Bennett, D.O., Libertarian Candidate for Congress in the 6th District of Washington State, and the Chairman of the Libertarian Party of Clallam County, WA

Sandi Moscicki, Past President (1998-1999) and first woman president of the Federated RI Sportsmen's Clubs, Past President, Rhode Island Firearms Liberty and Education

Ron Cowan, Editor, Faith & Freedom Sentinel

Brian Wilson, Radio Talk Show Host, Author

Winton Clark Aposhian, Chairman, Utah Self Defense Instructors Network

Tina Terry, Editorial Board Member, Sierra Times

Peter E. Hendrickson, President, Lost Horizons

Robert D. Butler, D.C., J.D., Legislative Director, Grass Roots SC; Legislative Liaison, Mid Carolina Rifle Club

Rick DeStephens, Brassroots

Thomas P. Cloyes, President, Waynce County Federation of Conservation Clubs, Ohio

Bengt Lindblad, Chairman, Citizens for Equal Access to Effective Self-Defense

Don Loucks, Co-Founder, Peaceable Texans for Firearms Rights, NRA (life), Running for Office

Todd Richert, Chairman, Washington State affiliate of the Constitution Party

Paul Zimmerman, Sierra Times Writer

William A White, Executive Committee, Maryland Reform Party

Jack Gilbert, Chairman, Founder, Firearms Legal Defense Fund

Richard L. Carone, Former NRA Finance Committee Chairman; co-founder, Californians Against Corruption, On Exile

Paul Velte, Peaceable Texans for Firearms Rights

Judge Paul Heath Till (ret.), Justice of the Peace for 22 years; NRA: former Director, ByLaws Committee Chairman & Firearms Civil Rights Legal Defense Fund Trustee. "Truth is Treason in the Empire of Lies."

Charles Hardenbrook, CEO, CW Cases

Harry Browne, Libertarian Candidate for President of the United States

Ed Hubel, President, Shooting Express Television

J. Anthony Brian, Attorney at Law. Trial attorney; former NRA Director; former member, CCRKBA Firearms Civil Rights Cmttee; accomplished speaker and debater. (661) 861-8050

Sgt. Jim Ramm (Reynoldsburg, Ohio Police Department, retired), Member NRA Board of Directors, immediate Past-Chairman, People's Rights Organization, Chairman, Ohio Citizens Advancing Personal Safety (O.C.A.P.S.) [a committee of the Ohio Constitution Defense Council], Director of Marketing for SafetyOn - The Comprehensive, Interactive Software Guide to Firearm Safety and Responsible Gun Ownership

Rep. Scott J. Orr, Montana Legislature

Norman Davis, President of Kentuckians for the Right to Bear Arms (KRBA), Take Back Kentucky

Colleen Hyden, Ph.D. Former NRA Director, Sociologist

Kevin Shannon, Associate Director, The Welch Report, Talk Radio Host

Jeremy Bowden, Director, Truth In Politics

Michael Z. Williamson, President, Cloak & Dagger
 
Compromise never got us anywhere & besides, "we" don't compromise.

"We" give up just a little more at every turn, every year, every debate.

The antis frame the debate & we react to their agenda. Tough to argue against "common sense gun safety laws for the children -if it saves only one life" without looking (to the general public) like a raving gun fanatic.

If you stand on a solid principal & refuse to back down from it, you are painted as a unbending fanatic. So be it, but I'll not back away from the principal of the debate.

I would compromise (gasp!) to a point if there truly were a compromise - but there isn't & never will be. That's not the antis goal/agenda - they want all the guns.

Yes, I think that the pro-groups do some great work (& I'll leave out any thoughts about what I don't like about 'em right now), but, the biggest clout we can have is personal attention (as opposed to the lobby groups) to our electeds.

We have all said it many times before - if each of us (all of us - every gun owner) would take an active part, write the letters, make the calls, make it known to our electeds, that we are holding them accountable for their actions - we wouldn't be in the fix we are.

How many times have you heard some politico spout some sound bite about "in a free democracy ... blah, blah ...?" Right then, he should be called on the carpet. We don't have a democracy, we have a constitutional republic & just because some polling data suggests that the idiotic public (that hasn't a clue what rights they have) "thinks" that we need this law, or that law ... well, friends & neighbors, my rights do not come from the government and they are not subject to the whims of a majority vote.

Sorry, but the pro-groups are missing the boat by allowing the debate to even go where the antis steer it. The answer to the antis "what about the children?" shouldn't be "well, guns saved X# lives ..."-type. It should be moreso "what the hell does that have to do with me?"

Watch the talking heads & when an anti is asked a question, they never answer it. They'll divert the topic to what they want - usually asking another question of their own to reframe the deabte - again. We should be doing the same thing.

Being the "fanatic" that I am, I'd suggest that there should be zero laws regarding the mere possession of anything. When a person actually misuses an object (causing unititiated force/harm to another) well then, we have a problem.

Appearing to be reasonable may look good (debatable IMHO) but we lose when the books are balanced.
 
I never said we should compromise in the end. But if the NRA came out foaming at the mouth about wanting machine guns in everyones house then I say we would have 60 days till every house had a swat team at it's door doing an illegal gun search. and Illegal guns would be anything that goes bang. There is such a thing as patients. And I don't care what you think the majority of people in the US are fence sitters. and without them we are LOST. And we are not going to win them over by yelling and screaming. They will just see you as a bloodthirsty freak.
 
I am just so afraid of the big, bad government! So, omnipotent, and so scary!
Give me a freakin' break! We don't have the manpower to send a SWAT team to every gun owner's house in America. Like to see them do that in some of us Western states, where most of the cops are pro-gun. There would be a lot of bloodshed, if they even tried. Nobody wants that, not even me! But I'm sick of painting rosy pictures. Why don't we get rid of all the evil semi-autos, make the NRA happy, and just go with muskets and single action old west guns. Yeehaw! After the NRA has convinced all you goofballs to give into registration (already done!) give up high-capacity (already done!) then HCI and the NRA can come out of the closet.

------------------
"Vote with a Bullet."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kevinw:
I never said we should compromise in the end. [/quote]

You don't get it.

If you compromise at the start and in the middle, which is the course taken by the NRA (and apparently you, as well), then there won't be anything left to compromise at the end.

Name one right that has been regained after it was lost through "compromise". Seriously. How often has the government crept up on us unawares? Have you seen any repeals lately?

You don't "ask" for rights. You either have them to exercise freely, or you demand them. See: civil rights movement.

This is not the time for the polite banter that you seek. That went out the window back in 1968 (or before). This is a time for telling the politicians, in no uncertain terms, that they may not encroach further upon our inalienable rights.

If the NRA stays its course, then there won't be any "rifles" to form a "national association".
 
The NRA does some stupid things and by all means they are not the only cure to gun-control. However, they do a lot of good. As far as I know, no federal gun laws have been passed since the crime bill of '94. There has been countless gun-control bills proposed since '94, however. There is at least five for more bills calling for major gun-control schemes each year, yet never make it out of committee. Mostly due to lobbying by the NRA. For $35 dollars a year, they do a lot of good. They also let you know when it is urgent that you write your elected officials, if a bill has a remote chance of winning.

Just being a member of the NRA is not enough to stop the anti's, but it is a good start. One should write letters, support other groups such as GOA, SAF, and JPFO, and get involved whenever possible.

The fact that the NRA does compromise on some issues is also bothersome. However, it was only a matter of time before the brady bill and assault weapons bill passed congress. If the NRA had not compromised, we would be hurting a lot more, now. It seems to me that the NRA usually only compromises when it realizes that a bill has a very good chance of passing. This seems wise to me, since if you cannot win, you might was well lessen the sting of defeat. This may sound like giving up, but one has to be realistic in what can be acheived.

With less and less of the youth being exposed to guns in a postive manner, it is only a matter of time until we lose all our rights. The only way I see things changing is if the facts about guns get exposure in the mainstream media. I do not see this happening any time soon. Our only hope is to slow the erosion of our rights as much as possible until the media does come around, if it ever does. Maybe the results of gun-control in England and Australia will receive mainstream exposure in the future. But I am probably being overly optimistic. I am going to do my best to fight gun-control by writing letters and giving to the different groups, but I have come to terms about living in a police state in the future. That's life, and it sure ain't fair.

[This message has been edited by jason h (edited July 03, 2000).]
 
Hmmm (again) ...

As a general reply, some thoughts trouble me. How is it that some of you allow the debate to be framed re "the voting block," etc. at all?

Our rights are not subject to that block - no matter. And thinking as such, we've already lost.

& you know, there used to be "a machine gun in every house" (not really, but enough to not matter for the argument) & there wasn't any problem ('cept for the gangstas = criminals). Now there isn't, but we've got "semis in every house" & again, we have no problem except for the criminals. Now "they" want those. Anybody notice a trend.

Nope, the NRA shouldn't foam at the mouth about machine guns, but neither should they have given 'em away ('86) so y'all could buy ammo mail order. NRA gave up an entire class of firearm. They would endorse a 24 (or 48) hour wait because 72 hours is so unpalatable.

If you "compromise," you lose - just not all of it right now - but soon.
 
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