Trespassing v2

I would bet that if you used deadly force against someone, inside your home or not, that was not a credible threat, you will be going to prison. I don't think there is a judge or jury in this state at least that will buy the "He was in my house, I had to shoot him" defense, when that person was not posing a threat to you.

Now, if they break in and are a threat, game on.
 
ChrisWNY said:
Where???
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I'm wondering that myself, some have responded that certain States allow it, I know for a fact that NY has really strict guidelines on use of deadly force, trespassing doesn't even come close to justifying that.
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Nobody has responded in this thread that ANY state allows it. Where are you getting this stuff from?
 
Conn. Trooper said:
I would bet that if you used deadly force against someone, inside your home or not, that was not a credible threat, you will be going to prison. I don't think there is a judge or jury in this state at least that will buy the "He was in my house, I had to shoot him" defense, when that person was not posing a threat to you.
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A few months, or even weeks, ago that would have been the case in your state. And in a few months it will be the case again. However ...

...Have you looked at a major Connecticut newspaper recently? There's a trial taking place in New Haven. Something about a couple of losers who walked into an unlocked house, beat the husband severely, raped the wife and one of two daughters, then strangled the wife and killed the daughters by tying them to their beds and torching the house. (The husband survived because he had been left for dead in the basement, woke up, freed himself and was able to crawl to a neighbor's house.)

Right about now, I don't think it would be possible to empanel a jury in Connecticut that would convict anyone for shooting a stranger they found in their house. Certainly not at night.
 
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Here if someone enters your house, vehicle, or business unlawfully while you are within the fore mentioned deadly force is justified no questions asked on if he is a threat the law spells it out clear they will be assumed a deadly threat. Outside on your dwellings use of force is permitted to remove a tresspaser. However if your trying to remove somene and it escalates to where you believe your life is in danger or will suffer great bodily harm you can always up the anty to deadly force.

http://www.legis.state.la.us/lss/lss.asp?doc=78338
 
Twice in my lifetime I've defended my family against armed home invaders. Perps got shot both times. I would not shoot a person who just walked into my house and who poses no threat to me and/or mine.
 
I am very familiar with the Petit case, I still don't think you can use the
"But they were in my house" defense. If someone is not a threat to you, you will end up in prison if you shoot them. If they are a credible threat, all bets are off. But if there is someone just standing in your house and you decide to shoot them, you will probably end up in prison for a long time.
 
Don't Trespass and you won't have to worry about getting shot for trespassing. :D

I think the issue you may be having is that you are expecting everyone to act rationally all the time in full accordance to the law. Reality is far removed from this.
 
Conn. Trooper, I lock my doors at night. If I wake up and there's a stranger in my house, he/she/they is/are a threat, I AM in fear for my life, and I will open fire. I live in a rural-ish 'burb, in a single family house set well back from the road (note: "road," not "street" -- no sidewalks or streetlights around here), and a fast police response if I had the luxury of dialing 9-1-1 might be 15 to 25 minutes. I'm a senior citizen with a chronic back problem that no longer responds to treatment, so I'm not in any shape to even think about going mano-a-mano with even one intruder.

The legal test is if a "reasonable man" would fear death or serious injury. In today's topsy-turvy world, where punks stomp people into vegetables just for laughs, and home invaders pour gasoline on teenage girls and then set fire to them as they depart the scene, how can you suggest that a "reasonable man" would NOT fear death or serious injury from an intruder in his home?

How can you even suggest that an intruder might not pose a threat? You say you are familiar with the case I referenced. According to what I read a day or two ago, the two home invaders weren't armed when they entered the house. Not armed = no threat, right? Except that they picked up the husband's softball bat and bludgeoned him almost to death with his own bat.
 
conntrooper, I must respectfully disagree w/you too. I know where you were going with what you said, so I'm not in any way bashing your side or picking it apart. bottom line though, a person knows when something is right or wrong for the most part(and I understand that might not match w/legalities). I wouldn't even be nervous after said incident happened and the perp was being taken out of the home deceased. worked up yes, scared of consequences no. what you said is a very gray area. example 1: if my wife and I wake up and theres a young man standing in our bedroom(by the way you probably know this sort of stuff has happned Many times before), he gets shot and he was a threat.end of discussion. same thing: its 1am and I'm watching tv in the den while my young children and wife sleep. man is standing in kitchen, den doorway, near backdoor after breaking in, whatever. he is carried out. again, he was a threat. end of discussion. I can think of some examples where you're coming from but not from the ones that are coming to my mind without thinking/searching for it. I have little children upstairs. if it came to light there was a very good reason deadman was in my house(one willnot arise) then that could cause some issue. example: accident by drunk guy, high on meth looking for rehab, etc. trust me, I am not "going to prison for a very long time" like you said. its a must lesser of a charge or a plea to something besides 1st degree murder which is a"very long time". I am innocent and a law abiding citizen(plus I am in VA and not CT or NY), and I understand this alone doesn't keep me out of hotwater all the time but Really. come on. ps-I grew up in new england so I do love the area
 
I think this thread can be chalked up to "urban legend" ... or maybe it's "rural legend :p " in this case. Before 1960 you probably could shoot a trespasser, bury them in a field, and no one would know the difference. That's probably where these rumors came from, and just persisted on. And heck, back in the day it might have been legal in some places and people just kept reciting it long after the laws changed.

As for breaking and entering... I live on the second floor in a condo with only one door in or out. Someone breaks in, they are getting shot. I have no where to go and I'd rather be alive dealing with lawyers than take a chance and be dead and dealing with worms.
 
Mike

I have looked at the Castle Defense laws in my home state of Missouri. It was modeled after a number of other laws and these have begun to gain traction in many states just as concealed carry gained traction after Florida passed it's law and the sky didn't fall.

In Missouri, before Castle Defense, a homeowner was obligated to retreat from harm and could only use deadly force when an imminent threat existed and all avenues of retreat were exhausted--with the burden of proof on the homeowner. After Castle Defense it is presumed that an intruder is there to do harm and the burden of proof that the use of deadly force was unjustified lies primarily with the state. Also, an intruder or his family may not sue for damages. The state also extended the "castle" to a person's vehicle so it applies to car jacking as well.

The justification is for self defense not only against threat of death or serious injury but also against a forcible felony which can mean some biker dude attempting to beat your brains out (felony assault) or armed theft even if fleeing after committing the forceable felony.

The law passed in 2007, the sky has not fallen. Most people who can pass muster to own a firearm or have a carry license are not trigger happy nor are they ready to take life without cause. Nonetheless, intruders beware. If you are told to leave you best leave. If you are armed and intrude then you may be shot until you leave or disarm.
 
Back to the original question...

I think in S.C. legally you can at night... on your property inside or out. Day time you are pretty limited to in the house unless you are threatened.

This was before any Castle Doctrine feel good politically motivated junk.
 
I've heard from many (outside of these forums) that certain States consider trespassing within the bounds of their use of deadly force clause, I am questioning whether or not there is any truth to that.
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Go ahead and shoot a tresspasser, then if you can, post what happens next.

It is against the law in every state. Sorry my answer dont match whats in your mind.
 
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1841845/posts

http://blog.timesunion.com/crime/report-albany-teacher-was-drunk-when-stranger-shot-him/5012/

Not every "intruder" is who you think they are. How would you like to shoot your daughter sneaking in from a late night out? Or a drunk that entered a wrong house and no criminal intentions? Both have happened. You shouldn't be shooting at what you can't identify. If you see a person thats a threat, by all means defend yourself. If you see a person, and you can't determine who they are or even if they are a threat to you, good luck to you when you shoot them. "He was in my house, so he is automatically a threat" will probably serve you well all the way to prison.

On a side note, the home invasion suspects in the Petit case actually displayed a weapon, turned out to be a BB gun that was very realistic.
 
Conn. Trooper said:
Not every "intruder" is who you think they are. How would you like to shoot your daughter sneaking in from a late night out? Or a drunk that entered a wrong house and no criminal intentions? Both have happened.
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Criminal intentions have nothing to do with the legality of shooting an intruder in your house. Here's what your state's law says about murder:

Sec. 53a-54a. Murder. (a) A person is guilty of murder when, with intent to cause the death of another person, he causes the death of such person or of a third person or causes a suicide by force, duress or deception; except that in any prosecution under this subsection, it shall be an affirmative defense that the defendant committed the proscribed act or acts under the influence of extreme emotional disturbance for which there was a reasonable explanation or excuse, the reasonableness of which is to be determined from the viewpoint of a person in the defendant's situation under the circumstances as the defendant believed them to be, provided nothing contained in this subsection shall constitute a defense to a prosecution for, or preclude a conviction of, manslaughter in the first degree or any other crime.
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I added the emphasis in the body of the citation. Note what it says: it is an affirmative defense if the person acted under extreme emotional disturbance for which there was a reasonable explanation. And then it further clarifies that the determination of "reasonable" is to be determined from the viewpoint of a person in the defendant's situation under the circumstances "as the defendant believed them to be."

In short -- the "reasonable man" theory. The shootee's intentions or reasons for being in my (locked, darkened) house at 03:45 a.m. DO NOT MATTER. What matters is that I know there should not be a strange man in my (locked, darkened) house at 03:45 a.m. and therefore when I saw him standing at the foot of my bed I was afraid. So I shot him. I had just been reading the reports of how Dr. Petit was asleep on the sofa in his sun room when he awakened to find two men standing there ... two men who proceeded to beat him so severely that his neighbor didn't recognize him. I think any reasonable person would (and should) be afraid, and based on YOUR state's law, that's all that is required.

Conn. Trooper said:
You shouldn't be shooting at what you can't identify. If you see a person thats a threat, by all means defend yourself. If you see a person, and you can't determine who they are or even if they are a threat to you, good luck to you when you shoot them. "He was in my house, so he is automatically a threat" will probably serve you well all the way to prison.
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Actually, based on your state's law, it would probably serve very well to not put me in prison.

Bottom line: People who don't want to get shot should not break into other people's houses.

Serious question: How long have you been a State Trooper? They didn't explain any of this to you at your academy? Did they teach you that anybody who shoots anybody for any reason MUST be arrested for murder?

I met a couple of young officers from New Haven, Connecticut, awhile ago. I asked them about the legality of open carry in Connecticut. It was a sneaky, underhanded question, because I already knew the answer. The scary thing is ... they didn't. They said open carry is not legal in Connecticut (it is, if you have a permit), and they said that's what they were taught at the academy.

What the heck are they teaching at police academy in Connecticut?
 
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conntrooper, what you state is vague @ best(your last post). If you had read my post I mentioned I had very young children(on two seperate occaisons) and that worrying about a teen sneaking in from a party isn't an issue for me. Also, an intoxicated man willnot come into my home "by accident", but I can again 'see where you are coming from' w/regards to that. If said individual did come into my home I willnot be "going to prison for a long time". It is a tragedy, but it is justified and the protection of my family is more important than waiting to get identify from the individual. I will know before the trigger is pulled if he should be there. If I was shot by the grandpa of the girl I liked to snuggle w/at 3 am on warm, summer nights as a teen(I snuck out all the time in the early 90's- I used to be out the door before the toilet stop making the flushing noise to drink, get laid, whatever), I can gurantee you he wouldn't be in prison now or even in the 90's for putting me six-feet under by accident. the key word is accident- he was defending his home&family and shot me to death. Also, what Aguilar stated about the laws in this case are very valid. I respect the yrs you put in as a trooper. I am assuming its in yesterday's past(I could easily be wrong); my grandma's(may she rest in peace) brother is retired NY state police and was on cold case files(the one w/wallet at bottom of hill from rape but I guess that might not help). Times have changed. I never was scared even as a teen, but I will trust my gut&intuition if a serious incident unfolds. If its a boy visiting my daughter in the late 2020's so be it(I will not shoot him), but I will not live in fear and second guess a deadly situation. I shouldn't own a gun if I willnot use it. I have thought about it many times: I don't want to pull my weapon on someone! If I do I will be able to use it under certain circumstances though!!
 
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Actually, based on your state's law, it would probably serve very well to not put me in prison.

Bottom line: People who don't want to get shot should not break into other people's houses.

Serious question: How long have you been a State Trooper? They didn't explain any of this to you at your academy? Did they teach you that anybody who shoots anybody for any reason MUST be arrested for murder?

I met a couple of young officers from New Haven, Connecticut, awhile ago. I asked them about the legality of open carry in Connecticut. It was a sneaky, underhanded question, because I already knew the answer. The scary thing is ... they didn't. They said open carry is not legal in Connecticut (it is, if you have a permit), and they said that's what they were taught at the academy.

What the heck are they teaching at police academy in Connecticut?

Open carry is not specifically a crime. However, you can be arrested for Breach of the Peace. Depends on your GA court, and I would believe on the circumstances in which it happened. It almost never happens here, so I am not suprised they didn't know the specific laws. There are literally hundreds of laws in every state, nobody knows them all. I ask a prosecutor a questions and the first thing they do is pull the book out and look it up. Why? Because nobody can memorize every statute.

Deciding if an action was "reasonable" is not decided by you. It will be decided by a jury. You and your attorney can present your side of the story and explain that you saw someone, don't know who, couldn't tell if he was armed, didn't know his intentions, and so you shot him. Maybe you will convince a jury that the most reasonable course of action was to immediately shoot this person, hopefully he was a criminal and may have been armed. If he wasn't, and if you shot someone with no criminal intentions, you will probably end up in prison. It only takes a jury to decide that you were not reasonably in fear for your safety to put you in the clink.

I am not talking about waking up and having someone right on top of you, I am talking about the tone of some of these posts is that "If he's in my house I am shooting him, no questions asked". And I am telling you maybe based on your states laws you may get away with that. Here, you will probably end up in prison for shooting someone that isn't a threat. Especially if you could have retreated and called 911.

And I have been doing the job for 14 years. Six more years in NY State. I am not new at this.
 
Trespass laws can be very complex.
I was once annoyed by some folks on my property. I believed they were doing vandalism, some one was, but couldn't prove it.
I called the prosecutor and went through many different scenarios with him. None were prosecutable offenses in his opinion. In his opinion, under Arkansas laws, a property owner has little to no recourse when it comes to trespassers. You can call the Sheriff and a deputy might be able to bluff the offenders into not coming back but that is about it.
 
I know in Hawaii(probably more strict than NJ or MD w/regards to firearms), you are automatically arrested for any homicide even if it looks like an open&shut case of self-defense+justifiable homicide. Its a requirement of the police officer to make the arrest; the Districr Attorney decides whether to push forward at that point. I know virginia does not have a retreat law. I do not agree with shooting trespassers of your land under most circumstances. Every once in a while I read about some idiots just reaching out their door and shooting trespassers. the last one was in TX and the man&woman were both charged w/murder(there usually not the most stand-up citizens also like in this case). They took shots at a man, his 14yr old son, and the 3rd person was either the mom or uncle. they were on their ATV's and just happened to stop to drink some water out of their canteen. The 14yr old died on scene
 
Also, an intoxicated man willnot come into my home "by accident",
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You sure of that? My brother was brought home one night he was 15, seems he was confused (drunk) and went into the wrong house, he broke down the door (Thought I locked it and was funning him as he did to me the week before) cops show up he is in the kitchen eating a bowl of cereal :) glad the homeowner locked himself in the bedroom and called 911 instead of killing my brother.

Some folks need to think about the situation before blazing away just cause the law says I can. You will feel real bad if you shoot someone and find out later it was all a mistake and you were never in any kind of threat.
 
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