Treating wounded in SD situation...

What would you do If ????
This is one of the questions that you will never know how you will react until the time comes!!!. Just how many will not be able to pull the trigger? How many will ponder and think what will happen If I pull the trigger, Time lost! As much as some kids that play to many of the to real video games want to see what it Is really like to kill some one, sick but true! Any one that has been there done that will be the first to tell you it's not fun and games as I'm sure most of you know. It comes down to what we were told In USMC boot camp, " Kill or be killed " and that is just what It has to come to, if anything less and you will be in deep S--T. As It was so well stated here before me, call 911 and If any others by standers are hurt, by all means help them and don't ever go near a wounded animal.Never! I just hope all of you never have to find out, but this Is a very good question and should be ask over and over at all training classes.
Sorry for the bad spelling, not my thing, Semper FI to all always, Hank D.
 
No I wouldn't because I am not the police or a paremedic,So I have no experience in a gun shot wound.As brent also pointed out I dont carry Blue gloves around with me and its risky with bodily fluids blood transfer.


Also the fact the perp may have another weapon on hand such as a knife or a another gun,I would just be putting my self back at risk being to close to the perp.He or she alread put my live and or other civilians lifes in danger there for he or she is unpredicatble.
 
Although the "good samaritan" laws might give you some protection in a criminal case, anything is fair game in a civil suit. As has been pointed out numerous times before, some castle laws state that if the homeowner is found to be justified in using lethal force, then the "victims" family can not file a civil suit.

On the other hand, shooting someone outside of your home is a completely different story. After all, you just shot and killed some mother's innocent little baby boy who would never commit such a crime if society hadn't made him a victim and forced him into that situation and now you will have to pay.

Scott
 
But if the perp gets tied up to protect the aid giver, all them GS laws are likely nullified...
Brent
 
Think about this - you will have to get an attorney for the shoot anyway - even if it is a 'good' one. Do you need to add extra billable hours to evaluate your first aid response or hire experts to defend you putting a tourniquet around his neck (being satirical here)?

Some places say you can't be sued or will reimburse in SD - but if the shoot is ambiguous and you do get charged and horrors, convicted - you just multiple your troubles and costs.
 
I think the post by .22lr is about as clear as it gets, with one addition:

If I am concentrating on evaluating and treating the wounds of the down BG, I am not paying enough attention to the threat of accomplices.
 
Even if there is still a concern for liability, I don't really care as I would rather save a mans life while protecting my own than sit around and worry about legal issues at that time.
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The question that you pose is not really a legal one. It is a moral one. Those questions are resolved between you and God.

Obviously, there are serious concerns about civil liability should BG succumb to the injuries that you originally caused through your justifiable self defense. However, regardless whether you are, or not a medical professional treating an injured person, there is going to be a someone who tries in court to show that you caused the death of BG after your "Good Shoot". Thus, it comes down to a moral issue. Obviously, if you help the BG after the shoot, you would have to suffer through the stress of the scrutiny of others.
 
That is an interesting question. Being in EMS in the great state of Colorado, I'm not required to provide assistance to injured people if I'm off duty. Thank goodness for that, I cant imagine treating anyone and everyone I come accross. I feel sorry for those states that force action for off duty EMS personel.

That being said, I feel a strong moral tug toward helping people in need. But it remains my choice as weather to act or not. If I had just shot someone, there is probably so much going through my head, I dont know if I would want to add keeping him alive to my responsibilities. Accidental shootings, you bet I'm gonna help you. If you deserved a double tap from my .45 then I may be less hesitant to help you.

Think about the BG situation, he thinks he is prolly gonna die, heck you just fired hot lead into his chest. That has got to hurt. What happens if he has a knife in his pocket and wants to take you with him? You kneel to help him and he shanks you in the gut. On the other hand, assuming my aid kit is available (ie: gloves for me, mask for him, pads and such to control bleeding) how could I stand there while he is dying, knowing full well I could help him.

A 911 call describing a shooting with a man down dispatches po po and EMS. So professional help is on the way for him, and response time is usually within five minutes in my area. However, EMS aint even going to pull on scene untill the po po have secured my gun, BG weapons, and any other weapons and BGs. Five minutes can turn to ten pretty quick.

Plus in court, you know the prosecuting attorney will bring up the point of how I am trained to save lives, and I should have helped the guy. This is a slipery slope.
 
if my phone is on me, after there is no more threat, I'll call police

and/or medical help.

I will not touch a BG.

particulary one who is wounded or dying.

pros can do that if they like.

they will do more good than I if there's hope.
 
I can't say I would give first aid to someone I'd been forced to shoot. I wouldn't feel safe, and I rarely have what I'd need to treat severe trauma on someone I don't know.
 
"The cops (who respond in multiples to a shooting event) will not allow the paramedic to get close until they have secured the scene.

The paramedics (who are pledged to save lives) will not get close until the cops have secured the scene.

There's a reason for that."

pax

THANK YOU PAX!!! As a Paramedic I am NOT required to render help to anyone who is or has tried to hurt me. I have said this before in a thread just like this. The Police will secure the scene as best as they can. Then EMS will provide care.

Has anyone else, (general public), tried to help someone who is in shock? Who has just tried to kill you, your family or friends? I have. Ever have a BG, who is dying from a GSW to the chest, reaching for his 2nd gun to try and shoot you and the others around you? I have.

People in shock are combative and the "Fight or Flight" nervous system is kicking in. They will do anything and everything to fight you, kill you and get away. So my answer is still no. Even in my duties as a Tactical Medic my job is to make sure the Police Officers are okay first, the public second, and then the BG gets taken care of. Calling 911 is enough help for them, don't endanger yourself.
 
I am a paramedic here in TX. If it came to a situation as described I WOULD NOT render aid to the attacker/individual that I had just shot.

I would call 911 and get police/ems on scene as quickly as possible.
If the individual was conscious and bleeding I would verbally instruct him to put direct pressure on the wound and be still as police and ems were on the way. IF I COULD DO SO SAFELY.

My first concern would be to maintain vigilance as the perpetrator may not be alone and I want to be easily identified when the police arrive. If I am "hands on" when the cops get there the situation could be misconstrued.

Joat
 
If I need to defend myself against a stranger, my primary concern for my safety translates into
1) he might get back up and attack me
2) he might have buddies that I need to watch for.

I can't think of any circumstances where I could sacrifice my situational awareness to render first aid.
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On the other hand, if I expected to be jailed and convicted for defending myself (e.g. David Murray's case, and here ) because I lived in Jersey, Maryland, Illinois, etc., I might have a plan to preemptively prostrate myself before the jury.
 
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Basically, if you are CC'ing and are forced to use your weapon in SD, would you treat the offender IF YOU COULD SAFELY DO SO? I suppose I mean this to be mostly a MATURE discussion of tactics to safely perform first aid after an SD shooting.
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I'm not a paramedic or lawyer, but I've taken about 12 various first aid courses in the last 15 years (Boy Scout leader... be prepared and all that) from American Red Cross, American Heart Association, and National Safety Council.

One of the things that every instructor reiterates is that the scene must be safe before one tries to render aid. The only thing worse than one injured patient is two injured patients! Although these classes usually refer to scene safety in the context of environment (electrical, gas, liquid, etc) and not self-defense situations, I'm sure the principle applies.

For that reason alone, I would probably not render aid, other than to give verbal advice (such as directing them to lie down or apply self-pressure to a wound).
 
Keltyke makes EXCELLENT point, if you are "working on him" and he dies, now YOU also have to PROVE that you DID NOT "finish him off". It is very hard to prove that one. :rolleyes:

Also remember this, you will probably be in "shock" from just shooting someone. What kinds of substantial first aid thoughts do you really think you would be thinking at this time?

Best bet, call 911, STAY on the phone with them. If they hear him groaning you can bet your bottom dollar he is STILL dangerous. If not, he is pretending he is dead waiting for you to get close so he can "do you" for shooting him.
 
I might do something such as tossing my over shirt and telling them to apply pressure to any wounds or suggesting they elevate their legs if something is close enough for them to use as a prop.

Past that I don't think so. Frankly if they had a weapon of some sort (which they would have to in order to be in that situation) tossing them a shirt might not be such a good idea as it could easily block your view of their hands.

I think the best thing you could do is to call 911, inform them that help is on the way, and keep a safe distance. Crowd control (keeping people away from me and the BG) would probably be #1 on the priority list followed by the 911 call.
 
I keep a couple of TacPacks around the house (usually one in my range bag and another next to the power tools). They each contain a quickclot bandage and sterile gloves and some other goodies that are useful for trauma; they cost around $20 apiece and are a good supplement to a regular boo-boo first aid kit.

I wouldnt be applying anything to the intruder with my own 2 hands (proper gun control etc etc.), but I would be more than happy to let him do it himself. Hell, Ill even explain how. Wouldnt hurt my legal standing, and my concience would be extra clean. Anything involving me coming within striking distance would be out of the question though.
 
As a prime example to what "pax" said:

Some years ago, a local paramedic crew responded (in an ambulance) to an EDP (Emotionally Disturbed Person) call. They arrived on scene, grabbed their gear, and walked towards the house. When they were about halfway between the house and the ambulance, the EDP ran out the front door - stark naked and swinging a 3' samurai sword. He proceeded to chase the paramedics around the ambulance until they could jump on the rear running board/bumper as the driver drove away. Since then, the LEOs always respond FIRST to an EDP call.
 
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