Trauma Surgeon educates us about weapons

I don't know what the Great Pacific Northwest was like, but when I was a kid in the Midwest, every family I knew had at least one 12-gauge shotgun and a .22 rifle, and most had a .45 cal. 1911, a .38 cal. revolver, or a .357 revolver.
I grew up in WV, not Oregon.

And you really think most people had handguns? That would be contradicted by studies that show handgun ownership in this country has risen drastically in the past decades.

I think handguns are the more important aspect to look at since I do not think most criminals are using rifles.
 
And you really think most people had handguns?
I didn't say that I think most people had handguns. I said that of the people I knew, most did. Whether that translates to the larger population or not is a different story.

To the best of my knowledge, only one family I knew did not have a handgun. Just about everyone's dad was either a WWII or Korean War vet. 1911s were pretty popular, as were blued revolvers (growing up, I recall seeing only one stainless steel handgun, some sort of S&W revolver that one of my uncles owned). The one family that didn't have a handgun (and probably not even a shotgun) was headed by a war widow.

I do think different areas of the country had and still have different rates of gunownership.
I think handguns are the more important aspect to look at since I do not think most criminals are using rifles.
That's fine with me, since I never mentioned rifles.
 
But, no self respecting hoodlum is going to carry a revolver anymore.

When did hoodlums get self respect?

People with evil intentions use what's available, be it an autoloader, a revolver, or box cutters. Their will is what matters, not the tool. Hollywood will have you believe there are gangbangers running around with AKs. Down south we have folks who were often child soldiers in vicious gangs who hacked people to death with machetes. They're far more dangerous than the people this misguided doctor is dealing with.

It's never the tool - it's the person.

Any 6th grader will tell you that a 14+ shot 9 MM is more fire power than a 38 revolver.

That's why 6th graders don't make laws.

I lost track of who commented on LEOs not carrying revolvers - the sheriff in my county does. USBP did until a few years back.

Law enforcement is sold on glitz just as much as anyone. The Mexican police near Juarez are all screaming they need more firepower to deal with the Cartels. Mexican police already carry M16s. If the standard weapon of the US Army & USMC isn't enough, I don't know what the heck they're doing - but they're doing it wrong.

Stateside, it's the same thing. DC police want more guns and police-state checkpoints to deal with "crime"... or just neighborhoods the system has caused to fail - but that's another rant. There's already a total handgun ban and no assembled rifles or shotguns are allowed.

If these things are "deadly assault weapons spray-fired from the hip to slaughter crowds"... then why do police "need" them?

Necessity is the Argument of Tyrants; it is the Creed of Slaves. - William Pitt

Every time the 1911 vs wondernines debate start, the point is made that firepower went down and it was a bad choice.

The doc in the OP's story doesn't know jack about guns. He also probably doesn't consider that a lot of the guys on his operating table getting involved in shootings are also bad guys.

Completely technical look at things:
http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal Ballistics as viewed in a morgue.htm

This fellow doesn't think much of anything less than a .40 S&W or .45 ACP. He also doesn't care too much for those on the slab - because the vast majority of the folks getting killed are bad guys killing each other.

It's not the gun doing the damage - it's the will to do harm on one's fellow man.
 
Where's the dramatic increase?

And you really think most people had handguns? That would be contradicted by studies that show handgun ownership in this country has risen drastically in the past decades.

Table 10

B. Trends in Gun Ownership - Type of Firearm

First Column after Year % of Adults in Household with Handguns

Second Column after Year % of Adults in Household with Longguns

1973 20.3 42.1
1974 20.3 40.4
1976 22.2 41.7
1977 21.3 45.8
1980 24.3 42.8
1982 22.4 41.5
1984 22.4 41.3
1985 24.2 39.5
1987 26.5 41.9
1988 24.4 35.9
1989 26.8 40.0
1990 24.9 37.3
1991 22.1 37.0
1993 26.1 36.7
1994 26.2 35.4
1996a 23.7 34.8
1996b 24.8 36.9
1997 24.0 31.1
1998a 20.7 29.0
1998b 23.1 31.9
1999 22.2 33.5
Sources: GSS=1973-1996a, 1998a; NGPS-96=1996b; NGPS- 97=1997; NGPS-98=1998; NGPS-99=1999

How can you be a good lawyer if you can't even keep up with what the question was.

The OP and others concluded that there is not more firepower overall because Bonnie and Clyde and a few gangsters had Tommy Guns. That is just preposterous with the explosion in popularity of high capacity semi-autos. Whether it has resulted in higher deaths is another question. But, it would take a moron to believe there is not more capacity now than there has ever been.

Well, now more ad hominems, good back and read the forum rules. And straw man arguments, how droll. If you can't come up with more this, there's no sense in arguing it. Summary judgment for the defense on this one. The plaintiff has failed the burden of production on the evidence.
 
Not to beat a dying horse but the worst offenders in medicine attacking guns are the public health types - as found in the CDC and supported by our tax dollars. Several years ago Dr Kellerman (one of the worst) gave a talk here about the "gun violence virus" - supported financially by one of our cardiologists/socialite/politician (in part at least). The local head of the FC cahstized me for not attending but, however many hours I have left to live, I refuse to waste any of them that way.

I did get the following letter published in our local newspaper and it was well received -



Tell it to The Gazette
PO Box 1779
Colorado Springs, CO 80901

Editors:

Public Health doctors tell us we should regard guns as “viruses” to be eradicated because exposure of persons to this “virus” causes them to contract the disease of “gun violence” that they are powerless to resist. Thus, guns are a public health problem.

Viruses cause hepatitis and AIDS and having close relationships with those harboring these viruses gives one significant risk of catching those diseases. This is clearly a public health problem.

I have had close relationships with guns for more than sixty-five years but have never felt like committing “gun violence.” My wife and I have had a close relationship for twenty eight years and she is not afflicted either.

Astonishingly, public health doctors seem to have ignored the most effective tool ever devised to eradicate viruses-IMMUNIZATION. We inject a less powerful variant of viruses into persons and their bodies develop immunity to the more powerful virus. Using this principle, we could require every person to acquire a less powerful gun such as a .22 caliber single shot rifle. With time, their bodies would develop immunity so they could all safely handle and shoot more powerful guns such as handguns, semiautomatics, and even “assault rifles” without fear of developing the dreaded “gun violence” disease.

It seems to have worked for me.

Yours truly,
O J KING, MD

Just to show not all doctors are anti-gun - by any means !!:rolleyes:

:D
 
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wow another article full of garbage :barf: a good friend of mine is an ER doc in Chicago and he see more people for drug abuse and car accidents than anything gun related.
 
Well, now more ad hominems, good back and read the forum rules. And straw man arguments, how droll. If you can't come up with more this, there's no sense in arguing it. Summary judgment for the defense on this one. The plaintiff has failed the burden of production on the evidence

Why is it with out fail that everybody on this forum when they have a losing argument comes up with the same old "ad hominen, strawman" stuff, and has to have evidence that the world is turning. Please, please come up with something new.


When I was a young man in the late 60's and early 70's gun stores had glass cases full of revolvers. Smith & Wessons, Colts, Rugers, etc. There were might be a 1911,High Power, PPK-S, but 80% of the inventory was revolvers. There were no Sigs, Glocks, or whatever the latest greatest is now.

If you go in to a large gun store today you have cases full of semi-auto pistols and revolvers are simply out of style. Most, if not all, of these semi-autos hold more than 5 or 6 rounds. When you have fired your 5 or 6 rounds and the other guy is still shooting at you then he has more firepower.

I do not need to see the sales records of the major gun movers to know that this has happened since I watched it, but I'm sure the antis have them and will dismantle this silly argument for you if it comes down to that.

Multiply your ownership percentages times population growth and understand that the increase proportional to that growth has been predominantly in semi-automatics and explain any logical conclusion that firepower has not increased.
 
Why is it with out fail that everybody on this forum when they have a losing argument comes up with the same old "ad hominen, strawman" stuff, and has to have evidence that the world is turning. Please, please come up with something new.

Why is it with out fail that everybody on this forum when they have a losing argument resorts to the same old ad hominens and strawman stuff, and can't produce the slightest evidence that what they claim is so obvious is true. Please, please come up with something new.

Fixed it for you.
 
When you have fired your 5 or 6 rounds and the other guy is still shooting at you then he has more firepower.

Yet the NYPD, not known lately for its restraint in throwing lead down range has the following figure for shots fired in a hostile encounter:

In such shootings, the total number of shots fired in each situation edged up to 4.7 in 2006. However, the figure is skewed by the 50 shots fired in the Bell case. Excluding that case, the average would be 3.6 shots.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/08/nyregion/08nypd.html?th&emc=th

I will admit having the extra rounds if you need them in the small amount of cases is certainly nice but the added capacity, when looked at in light of the total amount of shots fired per encounter over the years, is not statistically any type of justification for the move to hi capacity autos.

The amount of incidents where you have emptied your 5 or 6 and the other guy is still going is statistically insignificant. Just like the isolated blip of the rampage killer in murder rates the cases where an officer runs dry and is left at a disadvantage facing an auto wielding thug are practically non-existent in a statistical sense. What is more, in the handful of cases where that has happened proper shot placement, ammo selection and tactics would have resolved the situation far better than having another 6 - 12 rounds to throw down range as ineffectively as the first 6.

Personally I only own single stack autos (1911, Firestar M43 and Walther PPK/S) for carry as well as a model 60 J frame S&W.

I do not begrudge one who wishes to have a high cap auto. Statistically though the requirement for 18 rounds falls into a very small category of an already rare group (armed encounters where weapons are fired) and even then the need for more than six is debatable based on the way the first six were employed.

The real benefits of the auto are the ease of making follow up shots and general shootability. For reference check Ayoob's "The Semi Automatic for Police Use and Self Defense." It goes into detail on the justification for issuing autos to police, using reasons which have won over departments and politicians, and capacity is NOT the top of the list
 
When I was a young man in the late 60's and early 70's gun stores had glass cases full of revolvers.

The decline in firepower began in the 1930's. Far before you were born. Your anecdotal point of view is not evidence.
 
Yet the NYPD, not known lately for its restraint in throwing lead down range has the following figure for shots fired in a hostile encounter:

That has never been my point. One can argue whether the increase in average number of rounds carried is usefull, good , bad or insignificant.

But, when you go in gun stores and most all you see are revolvers, then two or three decades later you go in gun stores and most all you see are semi-automatics, a change has taken place. And, to say that this change didn't take place because the consensus is that there is an increase in firepower is just beyond silly.

I wonder if those trying to stop the ban of Thompson's did so by trying to convince the authorities that they had no more firepower than SAA's and 94's?
 
Cool, you guys can spell anecdotal, ad hominem and strawman. Now, get out your dictionary and see if you can learn some new words.


If you go to Gunbroker right now there are 14,673 semi-autos for sale versus 6965 revolvers. If I say that ratio would be inverse 30 years ago it might be anecdotal, but no less true.
 
If you go to Gunbroker right now there are 14,673 semi-autos for sale versus 6965 revolvers. If I say that ratio would be inverse 30 years ago it might be anecdotal, but no less true.

Gunbroker didn't exist 30 years ago.

25 years ago, I could (with a license) manufacture a machine gun in my home.
50 years ago, I could mail order whatever gun I wanted.
75 years ago, I could mail order a machine gun, no license required.
100 years ago, I could own artillery.
150 years ago, it was legal to own your own WARSHIP.
 
Increase in firepower? or increase in willpower, or lack of same?

Claiming there has been an increase in firepower might be justified, if one looks at the improved performance of ammunition in recent decades, after all, modern JHP bullets do perform significantly better than FMJ or lead, for anti-personnel purposes.

As to the proliferation of "high capacity" autoloaders, there are a few reasons, some not already discussed. Like Hollywood, for one. Take a look at popular entertainment of the last 50 years and you will find some clues. Prior to, and for a couple of decades after WW II, the most common "action" movies (and later TV shows) were westerns. Lots of guns and shooting in those pictures (more so than in the actual old west), but no machine guns or autoloading pistols. Move into the 60s and you see a shift to more "urban" drama, and the westerns fade. Car chases, machineguns and autopistols and other visually dramatic action (explosions, etc.) gradually become more and more common. Keep moving forward in time and what you get is more and more of the same, in a never ending effort to be more dramatic, in order to capture the public interest, and by so doing, make money.

There was a time when the only place in movies/tv that one saw a lot of automatic weapons was war movies. That has changed. For a couple of decades now (at least), the people making movies/tv have used a virtual formula of having nearly all the bad guys being armed with machineguns/assault rifles, and while they shoot up a whole lot of the surroundings, they never seem to be able to hit the hero, who then takes out the evil minions one, two, or three at a time, often with casual ease, using a (often large) handgun, or sometimes some of the bad guys guns, until reaching the head villian, where a shootout, then a physical fight occurs. The hero gets beaten for a while, but triumphs in the end. There are dozens of movies and TV shows that use some variation of this basic formula.

Auto pistols are not as dramatic as machine guns, but they are much more visually dramatic than revolvers. Slides going back and forth, magazines being inserted, brass flying, all a lot more interesting to watch than revolvers. Constant exposure on the screen does have an effect on attitudes. The "coolness" factor.

Another not yet mentioned factor in why we have so many autopistols running around today is the simple fact that in the last couple of decades a lot more people have had more money to spend than they did back in the 20s and 30s. And that includes Law Enforcement. Law Enforcement got a huge boost to their pocketbooks due to the war on drugs. And some of their new found money goes for guns. More people with money to buy autopistols, more cops buying autopistols, more autopistol designs made to take up the market, Hollywood blazing away, shooting nearly as much in an average day of "entertainment" as our soldiers did during the Normandy invasion, it all adds up. It wasn't that revolvers didn't work any more, or that they were any less effective, it was (as much as anything) a perception issue.

And now we get to the real heart of the matter. Why was it percieved that the cops were "outgunned", and why is it percieved that there is more "firepower" on the streets today? Because so many people (criminals, mostly) are willing to shoot! And shoot often, with little or no reason, other than they can, and they want to. And why? Maybe it might have something to do with a couple of generations virtually being trained since birth by a TV screen showing them that using a gun is the solution to every problem. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that back in the bad old gangster days of the 20s and 30s, that when killers were caught and convicted, they got the chair, or the gas chamber (and it didn't take 20+ years to be carried out) or they "went up the river" for a long time. And they stayed there!

Maybe it has something to do with so many people not giving a crap what happens to them beyond the moment. Maybe it is all these things and more, but the end result is that there is a perception that there is more "firepower" on the street.

But, if there actuall is more firepower on the street, it is being used very strangely. The correlation ought to be that the increased firepower results in tremendously increased body count, and the crime statistics for the past few decades just do not bear this out. There are, and have been, individual instances with high body counts, and the media makes endless money playing these statistically rare happenings for all they can get, both in dollars, and to further their ideals of societial change (like banning guns).

School shooting, and other rampage killers are big news, and the body counts are horrifying, to be sure, but these things are not common, not the way the media portrays them to be. With well over a couple of hundred million people in the country, they can't be, or we would be up to our eyeballs in bodies, every day, day in and day out. Severe "gun violence" (and I personally detest that term, making it sound as if the guns are the cause) is a localized phenomenon. Predominant in some areas, but virtually non existant in others. Yet certain members of the media and certain politicians make it sound as if is equally bad everywhere. They profit from our fear. Any wonder they are constantly trying to increase it?
 
Firepower is overstated. My revolver might only have 6 shots, but I can always quickly reload...if I actually need more than 6 shots.


A lot of folks mention the 1930's...and if you go back to the 1830's...there's
likely even more 'gun violence.' In fact in the early 19th century ,De Tocqueville wrote that a lawyer in Alabama complained to him that it was hard to convict someone of murder, because in most cases the defendant claimed 'self-defense'<as in defense of one's honor>and of course the culture of dueling...was widespread.


The first successful use of the 'not guilty by reason of insanity' defense was used for Congressman Sickles when in the Civil War era he shot and killed his wife's 'lover' in front of the Whitehouse. Hmmmmm...looks like 'gun violence' has been around awhile, and the last time I looked we've got a lot more firepower and less violence than the folks had 100+yrs. ago.


In the 19th Century there was the widespread hysterical belief that dime store novels about the Wild West and Outlaws...were polluting the minds of children and causing all sorts of violence and defiance of authority. Yawning, the more things change, they seem the same... What some physicians might actually be seeing today - is not an increase in handgun violence - but a significant increase in treatable survivors of handgun violence. I'd rather be wounded in the gut,arm,or leg in the 21st century than in the early 20th or 19th centuries.


The most common form of death in the 19th century was Upndied ie. 'He was doing fine, but then one day...he just upped and died.' The ambulance services and trauma centers were woefully inadequate back then...and the record keeping was generally poor...and if you were shot back then, there was a good chance you wouldn't get to see a doctor.


Story from the nonviolent good ol'days: In Tenn. during the Civil War, Gen.Nathan B. Forest was walking out the door of his Hotel when a young officer confronted him and pulled out a revolver and shot Forest in the hip. Forest luckily thwarted the shot a bit by grabbing the man's arm and with his other hand reached in his pocket and pulled out a pocket knife which he then flung open and used to stab the man away...who ran off out the door and down the street. Forest was of course traumatized, and a physician was called. The physician came in and looked carefully at Forest gunshot wound to the hip...and then somberly said 'I'm sorry to say your wound is a mortal wound...' Forest became hysteric and crying and began to shout 'I will kill the man who killed me...' Forest went out into the street and went from building to building and was restrained from entering a Dry Goods Store where the alleged perp. was hiding...but the perp wasn't just hiding inasmuch curled up and bleeding to death from what turned out to be a mortal wound from being stabbed by Forest. The man was brought to a bed in the Hotel..and after Forest had relaxed ...Forest was led to the room...where the man wept and apologized.. The man was a young Lt. who felt dishonored by a transfer after an incident in an earlier skirmish where he felt unfairly chastized for the loss of an artillary piece.. Forest apologized too...and the young man died in his arms. Forest's gunshot wound wasn't mortal. Doctors made mistakes back then too. I don't know where folks get the idea that somehow the 'good ol'days were less violent.'

;)
 
Firepower is overstated. My revolver might only have 6 shots, but I can always quickly reload...if I actually need more than 6 shots.


A lot of folks mention the 1930's...and if you go back to the 1830's...there's
likely even more 'gun violence.' In fact in the early 19th century ,De Tocqueville wrote that a lawyer in Alabama complained to him that it was hard to convict someone of murder, because in most cases the defendant claimed 'self-defense'<as in defense of one's honor>and of course the culture of dueling...was widespread.


The first successful use of the 'not guilty by reason of insanity' defense was used for Congressman Sickles when in the Civil War era he shot and killed his wife's 'lover' in front of the Whitehouse. Hmmmmm...looks like 'gun violence' has been around awhile, and the last time I looked we've got a lot more firepower and less violence than the folks had 100+yrs. ago.


In the 19th Century there was the widespread hysterical belief that dime store novels about the Wild West and Outlaws...were polluting the minds of children and causing all sorts of violence and defiance of authority. Yawning, the more things change, they seem the same... What some physicians might actually be seeing today - is not an increase in handgun violence - but a significant increase in treatable survivors of handgun violence. I'd rather be wounded in the gut,arm,or leg in the 21st century than in the early 20th or 19th centuries.


The most common form of death in the 19th century was Upndied ie. 'He was doing fine, but then one day...he just upped and died.' The ambulance services and trauma centers were woefully inadequate back then...and the record keeping was generally poor...and if you were shot back then, there was a good chance you wouldn't get to see a doctor.


Story from the nonviolent good ol'days: In Tenn. during the Civil War, Gen.Nathan B. Forest was walking out the door of his Hotel when a young officer confronted him and pulled out a revolver and shot Forest in the hip. Forest luckily thwarted the shot a bit by grabbing the man's arm and with his other hand reached in his pocket and pulled out a pocket knife which he then flung open and used to stab the man away...who ran off out the door and down the street. Forest was of course traumatized, and a physician was called. The physician came in and looked carefully at Forest gunshot wound to the hip...and then somberly said 'I'm sorry to say your wound is a mortal wound...' Forest became hysteric and crying and began to shout 'I will kill the man who killed me...' Forest went out into the street and went from building to building and was restrained from entering a Dry Goods Store where the alleged perp. was hiding...but the perp wasn't just hiding inasmuch curled up and bleeding to death from what turned out to be a mortal wound from being stabbed by Forest. The man was brought to a bed in the Hotel..and after Forest had relaxed ...Forest was led to the room...where the man wept and apologized.. The man was a young Lt. who felt dishonored by a transfer after an incident in an earlier skirmish where he felt unfairly chastized for the loss of an artillary piece.. Forest apologized too...and the young man died in his arms. Forest's gunshot wound wasn't mortal. Doctors made mistakes back then too. I don't know where folks get the idea that somehow the 'good ol'days were less violent.'

;)
 
A couple of thoughtful posts.


But, in the proverbial SHTF situation, you open the safe and see a SP101 and Glock 17. You and I both know which one you are going to pick up.:)
 
Ooops..didn't mean to post the same ol'post 2x's...but yeah I agree; those ol' unreliable polymer-striker jammamatics always get left behind when there's an SP101 available,:cool:
 
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