Transfer of ownership of pistol

There's a sporting purposes requirement for interstate loans, which the ATF (AFAIK) has not defined very clearly. From what I understand, keeping the gun in the nightstand, and occasionally taking it to the range, don't qualify.

It costs me $50 to have my LGS ship a handgun via USPS to an FFL anywhere in the US. (Note: That is LESS than it would cost me to drive to the FedEx or UPS hubs in my area, and ship the gun overnight on my own.)

It costs me $30 to have my LGS do a receiving transfer to me, from some other state.

What is the huge hairy deal? (Aside from the tinfoil-hatters who fear the 4473 forms....)
 
ScotchMan, NC requires purchase permits ($5 at your friendly local sheriff) to buy a gun from an FFL.

I don't believe said permits are required for private in-state sales; I am not sure if they are required for interstate FFL transfer. At the time I was in NC, I was active military, and a GA resident. It was simpler for me to just drive to GA and buy over there. (As opposed to taking a copy of orders to base provost; getting required forms from provost to show I was assigned to Bragg; take forms to sheriff's dept, get permit... especially since I was driving home to see the woman and the dog every few weeks, anyway.)
 
"I don't think anyone is trying to do that."

Sure they are. Some of them. The thread title says "as a gift."

John
 
I hate to rain on parades, but I think that "loan" business has been tried and didn't work. The law says "transfer", and a permanent "loan" is a transfer. That does not mean that if you are in another state and have legally brought your gun along, that you can't let someone use it. But if you leave to go home, leaving him the gun, I think that would be seen as a transfer, since he would then have full and complete control of the gun.

Jim
 
.40 to go said:
My grandfather wants to give me a handgun as a gift. He lives in MI and I live in NC. Can he just drive down here and give it to me. If not please tell me what we need to do.
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The answer is still no, he can't just drive down and give it to you, unless you both want to violate federal law!

You posted this question yesterday here. Didn't you like that answers you got? Well, it's still the same answer.

Find a local FFL who will do the transfer. Then your father, or an FFL on his behalf, can then send the gun to your transfer FFL who will transfer the gun. It would be legal for the your father to send the gun directly to the transfer FFL, but some FFLs will not, as a matter of business practice, accept a gun for transfer directly from an individual. If your father brings the gun down, you can both visit the FFL together to do the transfer there.

The transfer FFL will transfer the gun to you with all normal formalities, i. e., completion of a 4473 and satisfaction of any state law requirements in your State of residence.

[1] Under federal law, any transfer (with a few, narrow exceptions, e. g., by bequest under a will) from a resident of one State to a resident of another must be through an FFL.

[2] In the case of handguns, it must be an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. You may obtain a handgun in a State other than your State of residence, BUT it must be shipped by the transferor to an FFL in your State of residence to transfer the handgun to you.

[3] In the case of long guns, it may be any FFL as long as (1) the long gun is legal in the transferee's State of residence; and (2) the transfer is in compliance with the laws of the State in which it takes place; and (3) the transfer complied with the law of the transferee's State of residence.

[4] In connection with the transfer of a long gun, some FFLs will not want to handle the transfer to a resident of another State, because they may be uncertain about the laws of that State. And if the transferee resides in some States (e. g., California), the laws of the State may be such that an out-of-state FFL will not be able to conduct a transfer that complies.

[5] There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.

[6] The relevant federal laws may be found at: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922(b)(3).

Furminator said:
If there are no legal reasons barring either of you from owning a handgun and he obeys the laws for transporting a handgun through the states he will be driving, that should pretty much be it.
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Sorry, but you're wrong about this. See above.
 
Since it is a state to state transfer, you must go through a FFL in NC and since it is NC you will need to apply to the local sheriff for a purchase permit.
 
dajowl said:
Perhaps what you should do is "borrow" the hand gun. No legal tit tat.
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Yes, there very much IS legal tit for tat. Federal law allows for "temporary" loans of firearms for "legitimate sporting purposes." The law does not define either "temporary" or "legitimate sporting purpose," so as MLeake wrote, it is muddy. However, it is probably safe to say that "Here, it's your gun now," which equals "forever," is not what the law contemplates as "temporary." And what's the legitimate sporting purpose for the purported loan?

The BATFE has a very narrow view of what constitutes "sporting." In fact, cowboy action shooting and IPSC/IDPA type practical shooting, last time I read up on it, were NOT included. So what they're basically talking about is high power rifle, traditional bullseye, trap and skeet, and hunting. And my guess as to what temporary means is something akin to, "Gee, I'm sorry the firing pin on your SuperBlaster X5 broke, but you can borrow my spare SuperBlaster X3 to finish the match."

NOT "Keep it as long as you want."
 
If you are eleigible to legaly own a handgun, then your grampa can transport the gun to a dealer near you. You pay the dealer, and fill out the yellow form. It takes about 5 minutes. The dealer then checks to assure you filled it out correctly with all of the necessary information. He makes a phone call forhe NICS check. If approved he transfers the gun to you. You take it home and it is yours legaly.
 
Threads merged. There may be duplicate answers in the combined thread.

.40 to go - please do not create a duplicate thread on the same subject even if they are in different forums.

The Law forum is the correct one for this particular question.


Note to all - some here are advocating or advising the commission of a felony. Whether that advice is willful or through ignorance of the law is immaterial. If you do not know the legal answer to a question as important as the one asked, your best course of action is to remain silent.
 
Aguila Blanca said:
dajow said:
Perhaps what you should do is "borrow" the hand gun. No legal tit tat.
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Yes, there very much IS legal tit for tat. Federal law allows for "temporary" loans of firearms for "legitimate sporting purposes." The law does not define either "temporary" or "legitimate sporting purpose," so as MLeake wrote, it is muddy.
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Furthermore, the grandfather driving down to NC to load grandson a gun probably causes grandson to violate 18 USC 922(a)(3), which reads, in pertinent part, as follows (emphasis added):
(a) It shall be unlawful—
...

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides ... any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, ...
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The gun is being obtained from the OP's grandfather outside the OP's State of residence, and the OP would be receiving the gun in his State of residence. All that constitutes a violation of 18 USC 922(a)(3). There is no exception under (a)(3) for loans.

(The exception for loans is found in 18 USC 922(a)(5). It would allow you to loan a gun temporarily to someone visiting you from another State for some sporting purpose, e. g., target shooting, competition or hunting.)
 
Have Grandpa put it in his will and bequeath it to you. Eventually the gun will go to you (unless you die first) and you can drive down and pick it up. No transfer necessary. Meanwhile...

If Grandpa comes to visit in your state, he can bring the gun with him, y'all can go to a local FFL and do the transfer in person.

If the gun is more than 50 years old (or on the C&R list) you can apply for your own collector's license (FFL 03) and pesky things like state lines won't matter; you can handle the transfer yourself. The license is cheap, is good for 3 years, and has other benefits.
 
Re: Contacting local law enforcement...

Not to besmirch local cops, but they are often quite oblivious of Federal laws regarding firearms. I know, as I've received some very erroneous advice from well-meaning, but misinformed, local cop friends. (In NC, for that matter..., but also in Florida.) By friends, I mean people I'd work out with multiple times a week, go camping and whitewater rafting with, etc. In other words, people who really meant to give me good advice, but whose advice turned out to be wrong.

And I've had a cousin, who was a Massachusetts cop at the time, get arrested in Maine by a game warden for violating a Maine firearms law while camping. So the local cops may or may not have any idea about laws in adjacent (or almost adjacent) states.

If you want to check with an LE agency, ATF is who you want to contact, primarily.
 
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Road trip

Next time you go there for a family visit, have him hand it to you then bring it home with you. It's not like North Carolina is like Kalifornia where you're expected to register every handgun you acquire. Kalifornia has weird laws about that. Let's say you buy a handgun from a private party at a gun show out of state and you bring it home with you. They actually expect you to turn it over to an FFL for the 10-day wait and register it, plus pay for the privilege of having to wait to get your gun back... but that's another story
 
zucchi, see the earlier posts, including a couple by TFL Mods, telling people NOT to recommend committing felonies on TFL... Edit: Note that in post 29, fiddletown even listed the appropriate US Codes, that would explain why what you recommend is a felony.
 
zucchi said:
Next time you go there for a family visit, have him hand it to you then bring it home with you. It's not like North Carolina is like Kalifornia where you're expected to register every handgun you acquire...
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You're really not paying attention. If someone were to do what you suggest, they would be committing a federal felony. It has nothing to do with NC law. See posts 5 and 29.

zucchi said:
...Let's say you buy a handgun from a private party at a gun show out of state and you bring it home with you....
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And if you did that, you'd be committing a federal felony; and so would the seller, if he knew or had reason to believe that you were a resident of another State.

You clearly have no idea what the federal law regarding interstate transfer of firearms is. If you engage in multi-state transaction, you really need to do some studying.

And as Mal H wrote in post 33:
Mal H said:
...Note to all - some here are advocating or advising the commission of a felony. Whether that advice is willful or through ignorance of the law is immaterial. If you do not know the legal answer to a question as important as the one asked, your best course of action is to remain silent.
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MLeake said:
Re: Contacting local law enforcement...

Not to besmirch local cops, but they are often quite oblivious of Federal laws regarding firearms....
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And that's generally true. In fact, a local or state LEO really has little or no reason to be familiar with federal law regarding interstate transfers of a firearm. That's something that is just very unlikely to come up in their work.
 
Not to besmirch local cops, but they are often quite oblivious of Federal laws regarding firearms. I know, as I've received some very erroneous advice from well-meaning, but misinformed, local cop friends. (In NC, for that matter..., but also in Florida.) By friends, I mean people I'd work out with multiple times a week, go camping and whitewater rafting with, etc. In other words, people who really meant to give me good advice, but whose advice turned out to be wrong.
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In the specific case of North Carolina, you do in fact have to talk to the local cops as you need a state purchase permit to buy or transfer a pistol. Federal law requires the use of a FFL dealer and state law the permit. Both sets of laws federal and state apply.
 
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