Transfer of a gun with no serial number on it.

Tom Servo said:
Several others have posted the correct information. Your friend doesn't need to worry about a serial number because the firearm was made prior to 1968. When licensed dealers interact with such guns, we list make, model, type, and caliber. For serial number, "none" or "NA" is acceptable.
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Tom, the law still allows us to build our own firearms. This is the basis of the (now disappearing) market for "80% receivers." My understanding from perusing the ads for these things is that no serial number is required on a home-built firearm even today.

Suppose I built an AR-15 a couple or three years ago from an "80% receiver," and then this week I decide I can't afford to shoot it so I'm going to give it to my nephew in New Hampshire. (I don't live in New Hampshire.) It would be an interstate transfer, so it would have to go through at least one FFL. Would I have to mark it with a serial number and my name and city as the maker before it can be legally transferred?
 
My understanding from perusing the ads for these things is that no serial number is required on a home-built firearm even today.
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You're correct.

I'll have to do some digging for the regs on transfers. The ATF has sent out letters saying that the item must then be in acccordance with 27 CFR 478.92, but again, most of that applies to licensees, which the OP is not.
 
I have read several letters issued by ATFE on the subject and they ALWAYS include a REQUEST that the firearm be serialized if it is going to be transferred in any way. I imagine that if it turns up later at a crime scene they might look on having followed that request favorably. Unlikely as that may be.

Personally, I'd just hand it over. If going through an FFL the FFL is the one responsible for such things. If you find an FFL willing to transfer without one, and if you say it is pre-68 you probably can, then I don't think anything will come back on you as long as ATFE can't prove it is not pre-68.
 
Will bring this back to life as I am dealing with the same issue. Grandfather is transferring a pre 1968 Sear and Roebuck Co. JC Higgins 12ga to his grandson from AZ to NC. I am the transferring FFL and just got the answer from my ATF Inspector: "NSN" in the serial column.
 
had a Siamese Mauser in the 80s. Not one arabic number on it. "No serial Number" was what went on the paperwork, all good.
 
The OP asked about a handgun with no serial number. While a home made gun is not required to be serialized, a couple of you stated that serial numbers were not required before 1968. This is true for long guns. Factory-made handguns have been required to have serial numbers since 1934.
 
Bill DeShivs said:
Factory-made handguns have been required to have serial numbers since 1934.
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I don't think so, unless I'm missing something.

The National Firearms Act of 1934 did include a provision for all firearms to have a serial number or other identifying mark ... but the NFA defined "firearms" for the purposes of the act as rifles and shotguns with barrels less than 18 inches. Handguns were specifically excluded.

For the purposes of this act--
(a) The term "firearm" means a shotgun or rifle having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length, or any other weapon, except a pistol or revolver, from which a shot is discharged by an explosive if such weapon is capable of being concealed on the person, or a machine gun, and includes a muffler or silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is included within the foregoing definition.
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This is right at the beginning of the NFA, so that definition of "firearm" applies to any provisions affecting "firearms" anywhere in the remainder of the act.
 
I inherited a few firearms from my late Father. One was a Remington bolt action .22LR that he got for a Christmas gift at age 12, which would be around 1947. It has no serial number. It was transferred from Texas to me in Illinois without any problems. The FFL just described it best he could on the form.
 
I believe it was the National Firearms Act of 1934. You can look it up.
Think about this- how many pistols have you seen without serial numbers?
 
Bill, I looked it up. See post #28. I quoted the language of the definition of "firearm" as it applies to the [entire] act. It specifically excludes pistols and revolvers. It also does not apply to rifles and shotguns that are not easily concealed on the person.

You may be correct that all firearms manufactured after 1934 are required to have serial numbers but, if that's correct, the NFA of 1934 isn't the law that requires it. So, since you have said there is a requirement, please tell us where the requirement is found.
 
The quoted text from the NFA 34 does seem to exclude handguns. I don't know of any other law requiring serial numbers until the 1968 GCA. I know that one does.

Gunmakers voluntarily put serial numbers on guns for over well over a century BEFORE any law required it. Just not on ALL guns. It was another of those things that showed the "quality" of the item. Low budget .22s and some shotguns didn't get numbers. "High quality" guns, did, including .22s and shotguns.

the odd thing is, compared to today, prettymuch NOBODY CARED....:rolleyes:
 
Why would GCA-68 ONLY require that long guns be serialized?
Because handguns were already required.
Other than splitting hairs, what would my researching NFA and finding the information (or not) prove? The federal statutes referencing "firearms" are ambiguous at best. In the NFA, "firearms" are a completely different animal than regular guns-yet in most other federal gun laws the term "firearm" refers to pistols and rifles.

Can I prove that the NFA required handgun serial numbers? Maybe.
Do I choose to? No.
The statement(s) was made that until 1968, handguns did not require a serial number, and that statement is blatantly false. So, I'll modify my statement:

The federal government has required serial numbers on licensed manufacturer's handguns for a very long time- probably since the NFA 34. How's that?
 
Bill DeShivs said:
Can I prove that the NFA required handgun serial numbers? Maybe.
Do I choose to? No.
The statement(s) was made that until 1968, handguns did not require a serial number, and that statement is blatantly false. So, I'll modify my statement:

The federal government has required serial numbers on licensed manufacturer's handguns for a very long time- probably since the NFA 34. How's that?
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Your revised statement gets you off the hook, but it doesn't contribute to the collective knowledge base. We're all here to learn, and the more we can learn about gun laws the better prepared we are to argue against new ones when they are proposed.

The statement(s) was made that until 1968, handguns did not require a serial number, and that statement is blatantly false.
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Having now declared that the statement is "blatently" false, I respectfully submit that it is your responsibility to demonstrate why it is false. Initially you said it was because the NFA of 1934 required serial numbers on handguns, but the NFA explicitly exempts handguns, and rifles and shotguns with barrels longer than 18 inches.

Merriam-Webster On-line said:
Definition of blatant

1 : noisy especially in a vulgar or offensive manner : clamorous
2 : completely obvious, conspicuous, or obtrusive especially in a crass or offensive manner : brazen blatant disregard for the rules
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The statement that serial numbers were not required on handguns before the GCA of 1968 might be incorrect, but I don't think 44 AMP would lie to us, so I don't think it's appropriate to label his statement "false." Even if he's wrong, he's not "blatantly" wrong, because it's not at all obvious that he's wrong. The fundamental principles of debate now place the ball in your court. You have said he's wrong -- it's your responsibility to back that up. Shirking that responsibility doesn't add anything to the knowledge base.

[Edit to add]I just did a search on "When were serial numbers required on firearms?" Every link that came out of that says that, for other than NFA items, the requirement began with the GCA of 1968.
 
The 1938 Federal Firearms Act, which was replaced by the 1968 GCA, has a teensy bit about serial numbers:

"It shall be unlawful for any person to transport, ship, or knowingly receive in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm from which the manufacturer's serial number has been removed, obliterated, or altered, and the possession of any such firearm shall be presumptive evidence that such firearm was transported, shipped, or received, as the case may be, by the possessor in violation of this Act."

Which of course isn't a requirement for them. On the Federal level, this seems to be about it until 1968.

https://govtrackus.s3.amazonaws.com/legislink/pdf/stat/52/STATUTE-52-Pg1250.pdf
 
I just perused the GCA 68 and find nothing in it requiring serial numbers.
There IS a lot more stuff in it that you may find interesting, though.

I ask-what pre-1968 handguns did NOT have serial numbers? I have a Eig .22 short pre-68 revolver. It's about as cheap as they came. It has a serial number.
All of the pre-68 small guns by Astra, Beretta, Colt, Star, etc. are serialized. If it was not a requirement before 1968, why are they numbered?
Why are many US made long guns that were made pre-68 un numbered?

Simple logic says that there was a requirement for handguns to be serialized before 1968.
 
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Bill DeShivs said:
I ask-what pre-1968 handguns did NOT have serial numbers? I have a Eig .22 short pre-68 revolver. It's about as cheap as they came. It has a serial number.
All of the pre-68 small guns by Astra, Beretta, Colt, Star, etc. are serialized. If it was not a requirement before 1968, why are they numbered?
Why are many US made long guns that were made pre-68 un numbered?

Simple logic says that there was a requirement for handguns to be serialized before 1968.
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Simple logic could also deduce that prior to 1968 manufacturers chose to put serial numbers on guns for reasons of their own, other than the NFA of 1934. Research 1911s, for example, and you'll find that Colt put serial numbers on ALL their 1911s, not only on the M1911 versions that were sold to the military. I have a book on Colt Serial numbers. It shows that the early black powder, cap and ball Walker Colts and Dragoons, as far back as 1847, had serial numbers.

"There must have been a reason" does not automatically mean that the NFA of 1934 was the reason.
 
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