Trampling the First Amendment

Dixie Gunsmithing said:
Now, to the 4th Amendment, and the reason I said our effects, is I do not believe the framers intended that to mean only personal effects, and if they had, they would have said so. Effects means that it coves anything that we have originated or caused to come into effect; any record. That is the standard definition of it, ...
I respectfully disagree. You are conflating the common definition of the noun "effect," meaning "result," with the legal term, which means "possession" (in the noun form).

The Supreme Court long ago ruled that the record of what numbers you called on your land line phone, on what dates and at what times, are not protected and the government does not need a search warrant to access that information. The government's argument is that these cell phone records are the same thing. It isn't wiretapping -- intercepting or recording -- the conversations themselves, it is only looking at the record of where and when the calls were made, and to what numbers.

I can accept that distinction, but I'm not happy about it for a couple of reasons. First, I think everyone who ever had a land line phone knew that the telephone company (in the days when there was only one "telephone company") kept those records. After all, your bill every month clearly showed every long distance call, what number and city it was to, and how long it lasted. We never had any doubt or question that these records existed.

On the other hand, my late father spent his entire working life (except for a few years off in India and China saving the free world) toiling for Ma Bell. In fact, he was in a department related to billing. As far as I know, there were no records created of local calls, so for those there was what would today be called "an expectation of privacy."

The key point of the 4th amendment is (IMHO) that

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
I don't think many people who use cell phones fully understand the extent to which each call leaves a trail, so there's the question of whether there is an expectation of privacy (and, or course, the related question of whether or not we are entitled to one). But, at the core, with cell phones now so integrally a part of so many people's lives, at what time do we cross the line from searching a record to searching a person? If a cop makes a traffic stop and you hand him your wallet when he asks for your license, even if the license is clearly visible in a window pocket he'll tell you to just take out the license and hand it to him. Even if he has reason to conduct a Terry frisk on you, he has no legal authority to start looking in your wallet.

In my view a cell phone, especially a smart phone that holds not just phone calls but also photos of your wife and kids, memos about your work, e-mails, etc., is more than a telephone. It has become an electronic wallet. I think we DO have an expectation of privacy with respect to that. The issue is whether or not that expectation can or should extend to the government being allowed to collect -- automatically and in enormous volume -- the "meta data" associated with this electronic wallet with no probable cause, not even reasonable suspicion, but simply because the government has the technology and the computing horsepower to do so. In other words, "We're doing it because we can do it."

My view is that THIS is an unreasonable search of my life, and therefore of my person.
 
Aguila Blanca,

I know that they have said that they mean personal effects, but I do not think that the Supreme court has ever truly ruled, exactly, what effects means; they've skirted around it. To me, and to several others that I've read their comments about it, say that since the word 'personal' wasn't added in front of 'effects', that it means as I stated, it's literal definition, and now a ruling should be made on that. Also, that the wording should be taken literally, as written, because if it isn't, it could throw out other decisions that were made, due to doing the same thing, interpreting them as literal.

Form Webster: "plural : movable property : goods <personal effects>" However, if we read the singular, "something that inevitably follows an antecedent (as a cause or agent)". In other words, in our case, a record that came to life over something we caused to happen. To me, that also means a personal effect. Plus, there are other dictionaries that giver further evidence of this, and different wording.

Since decisions from past SCOTUS cases have been overturned, though not a lot, this one could to, in that what exactly does 'effects' mean? It would go down to who has the best argument, what is the most believable, and how do the sitting justices interpret it.

I wanted to add this from the Oxford dictionary, as to the root of effects:

"Origin: late Middle English: from Old French, or from Latin effectus, from efficere 'accomplish', from ex- 'out, thoroughly' + facere 'do, make'. sense 3 of the noun, 'personal belongings', arose from the obsolete sense 'something acquired on completion of an action'".

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/effect

Update:

After speaking with a friend on the above, he advised me to look it up in the Black Law Dictionary, which would be the legal definition, and said that is where the idea is supported.

The dictionary states that, "“Real and personal effects”would embrace the whole estate; but the word “effects” alone must be confined to personal estate simply, unless an intention appears to the contrary".

http://thelawdictionary.org/effects/

Here he and I ask, what was the intention? It is almost a loophole, allowing a larger description, if one uses the root definition.
 
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DG, take it as you will, but I have no doubt that, if the SCOTUS were to rule on what "effects" means in the 4th Amendment, they would rule it to mean the legal definition rather than the pedestrian definition.

But ... this just in:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-5...-flap-extends-to-contents-of-u.s-phone-calls/

Once again, "somebody hyar ain't a' tellin' the truth." One Congressman says NSA analysts are eavesdropping on telephone calls without warrants, another says that can't happen. The whistleblower says it can happen and does happen. Who are we to believe?

In light of the posts immediately above, this may pertain:

Earlier reports have indicated that the NSA has the ability to record nearly all domestic and international phone calls -- in case an analyst needed to access the recordings in the future. A Wired magazine article last year disclosed that the NSA has established "listening posts" that allow the agency to collect and sift through billions of phone calls through a massive new data center in Utah, "whether they originate within the country or overseas." That includes not just metadata, but also the contents of the communications.

William Binney, a former NSA technical director who helped to modernize the agency's worldwide eavesdropping network, told the Daily Caller this week that the NSA records the phone calls of 500,000 to 1 million people who are on its so-called target list, and perhaps even more. "They look through these phone numbers and they target those and that's what they record," Binney said.
So they record them. Not just the metadata, but the conversations themselves. Are we to believe that they then obtain a warrant for each of those calls they want to listen to later? (Pssst, hey Buddy -- wanna buy a bridge in Brooklyn?) More to the point, is not the recording itself a seizure, which should not occur without a prior warrant? A wiretap is an interception. Whether someone listens to my conversation in real time or saves it to listen to during lunch break, my conversation (for which I DO have an expectation of privacy) has been intercepted, and can be listened to by persons who were not intended to be party to that conversation. That should not happen without probable cause and a proper warrant.

As [supposedly] guaranteed by the 4th Amendment.

Further, I don't like the entire notion of the FISA courts. There needs to be some degree of transparency and oversight. At the moment, it appears there is none.
 
Oh, believe me, I know how they would want to rule on the 4th Amendment, on what effects mean, but I think if the right legal mind could bring it before the court, and show where its meaning came from, that it could be possibly changed, and the last opinion overturned. There's several who have studied this, and feel the same, as they studied it in British common law, which is where the definition comes from. This is just my opinion, and others, though.

Anyhow, to the eavesdropping on conversations, there was a video, and I think it was on Netflix, or on Discovery, about where the government built a secret room at the Telco, where the main undersea trunk line comes in on the west coast, from Asia, and was doing what the article said above. An engineer saw where the wires had been rerouted, and they interviewed him. I wish I could remember where it was, as I would post the link, so maybe somebody will know the one I'm speaking of?
 
I don't think many people who use cell phones fully understand the extent to which each call leaves a trail, so there's the question of whether there is an expectation of privacy (and, or course, the related question of whether or not we are entitled to one). But, at the core, with cell phones now so integrally a part of so many people's lives, at what time do we cross the line from searching a record to searching a person? If a cop makes a traffic stop and you hand him your wallet when he asks for your license, even if the license is clearly visible in a window pocket he'll tell you to just take out the license and hand it to him. Even if he has reason to conduct a Terry frisk on you, he has no legal authority to start looking in your wallet.

In my view a cell phone, especially a smart phone that holds not just phone calls but also photos of your wife and kids, memos about your work, e-mails, etc., is more than a telephone. It has become an electronic wallet. I think we DO have an expectation of privacy with respect to that. The issue is whether or not that expectation can or should extend to the government being allowed to collect -- automatically and in enormous volume -- the "meta data" associated with this electronic wallet with no probable cause, not even reasonable suspicion, but simply because the government has the technology and the computing horsepower to do so. In other words, "We're doing it because we can do it."

My view is that THIS is an unreasonable search of my life, and therefore of my person.
Excellent points. And one I might add to this is that many people, and the numbers are growing each day, are abandoning their phone lines and using mobile phones as their only voice communications device. They shouldn't lose fundamental rights simply because of a technological shift.
 
Something I have pondered about is that when the government switched to electronic documents, was three any law passed, that said or declared that electronic data was to be treated the same as paper, in being classified? If so, this changes what is meant by property, or at least property of the government. This would be the same with governmental e-mail, and any other. So, if they can have those protections, why can't the general public?
 
The Spy Factory

I found the video that I spoke of in an earlier post, about the NSA listening in, and give a link to it below. It is a documentary produced by Nova, named The Spy Factory. It shows, and tells about the NSA using the main underwater phone line to the US at around 38 minutes into it. Right off the bat, though, they say that the NSA did listen in, but I think they are referring to what happened during the Bush Administration.

Video:

http://movies.netflix.com/WiPlayer?movieid=70114516&trkid=497086

If the link doesn't work, you may have to do a search for it on Netflix.

Update:

I also found two links to what supposed to be the full version on Youtube, and on PBS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdPpdu8OGDQ

http://video.pbs.org/video/1051968443/
 
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