TRAITOR

R

ruger45

Moderator
We were standing by several of the high capacity
firearms mostly HK's and looking at the LEO only stamp on a couple
I said.
-Looks like we cant be cant be trusted with those-
Officer--'Oh I can buy them IM Law enforcement.'
Ruger45--'They dont want some of us to own those,theyve even confiscated some people's
in connecticut'
Officer--'They wont take mine, I work for them'
(Odd I thought he worked for the people)
Ruger45---'Well atleat you wont be one of the ones sent out to someone's
house to confiscate their firearms ,I cant beleive people are doing that.'
(Why do I keep assuming these people care about WE the people our
lives or freedoms)
Officer --'Yes I am Im on the swat team '--- calmly proudly stated no change of facial expressions.
Ruger45---'Youd break into someones home to confiscate their guns...' disbeleif in my voice at this point Im sure.
Officer---'IF I had to'
Ruger45 -- jaw not quite dropping---' IF you had to????If you were ordered to youd break into some citiznes home to take their guns and gun them down if they resisted???
Officer---'If I have to I have to, you gotta pay the bills'
( I wouldnt have beleived it if I hadnt heard it with my own ears ,guess Im the extremist everyone sais I am but I was getting angry and I still think I was polite)
Ruger45---'I think your a traitor to your country.... You ARE a traitor to your country!'
after making sure he heard what I said looking him straight in the face I slowly walked away ,he wasnt in uniform but I was out of state and smart enough to know talking more wouldnt help.

This was a tall young ,well built fella with a crew cut like hair cut walking around with the rest of us.
When the orders given 'RATATATATATT' oops their go a few more citizens who thought they could own guns.
God help us because these guys sure wont be.
Or should I just have my hands up when the kick the doors in and put the red dot on me and the wife's head because some over night vote gave me some 'illegal' guns,or they become so because I refused to register my more 'dangerous ones but someone knew I had them and got their informanat money.

LAWDOG,DENNIS please feel free to jump in on this one.

------------------
"those who sacrifice
liberty for security deserve neither"
 
The SS and Gestapo were "only obeying orders". Far too many police would enjoy killing and the more people they could kill the better. Not all are like that, but don't buy the "tiny minority of bad cops" business.

Jim
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Officer---'IF I had to'[/quote]

Well, now, that do tend to cover a lot of territory. Was there more to the conversation, or did you jump to your conclusion from this one statement?

"IF I had to." So that one "IF" automatically assumes that there aren't any other circumstances in which a SWAT team may need to take someones guns away from him?
I can remember sometime back when the Childress County SO 'had to' break into a man's home and take his guns away.

He had suffered a serious head injury after a car accident and was diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic. The SO wound up with a court order and took his guns away for his own, his wifes safety, his familys safety and others safety.

Probably a good call, because six weeks later he cut up 95% of the Sheriff's Office with a pocket knife before being gunned down.

The AR15 might have been a little much to contend with.

"IF I had to." Hmm. Such an all-purpose answer. Tell me, would you kill someone? The easiest short answer is -- If I had to. Most of the people on this Forum respond that way: "If I had to."

-- Great Horned Toads! Obviously, I'm dealing with several thousand serial killers. Of course, that's using your logic.

Like it or not, there are times you have to take guns away from people. Legally. Times that have nothing to do with 'over night orders', times that have nothing to do with anti-RKBA legislation. Times that simply have to do with trying to keep a man alive.

And that officer you talked to, may wind up doing it.

"IF he has to."

That's a mighty big "IF" to be naming a man a traitor over.

LawDog
 
Law Dog,

Your post is well written.
In the States I really don't think we need to be looking for a gestapo agent in every uniform we see. Where I live (Japan) the police have a 99% confession rate, there's no right to an attorney, and a suspect can be held incommunicado for a long, long time.
Real "Sign Ze Papers!" stuff, if needed. Thankfully the police over here know how much power they have and restrain themselves: they rarely make arrests, unless they think that they have to.

The Japanese attitude seems to be that the government are the parents, the people are the children, and the police are the nurses.
Talk about the sensitive, caring, police state! :eek:
 
Next thing we know , law dog will be voting for Gore; God, what garbage this country is turning into.

The government can and will do what ever it likes to us and its all right, its ok , no problem ....just so long as they do it to some one else and not me.

And I will laugh at and condeme the poor victim of a police state , secretly glad that it's him and not me.

However, there but for the grace of God
could go all gun owners.
Which of us will be the next turn ?

I don't like to see the fire arms community getting used to this "KIND OF SHABBY TREATMENT" from the state because when your number comes up others will say

"He deserved it."
"He had it coming".
"You can't fight city hall."

Our indifference to our fellow members in the firearms community only makes it all the easier for the police state to no knock raid ,kill and confiscate.

It is our society and we do bear some share of responsibility to ourselves, our families and our childern as well as our fellow citizens for allowing the USA to degenerate from a free republic into a police state.

Just like gun control, the police state gets a little closer each and every day that we sit back and do nothing.

Are you doing ALL YOU CAN to encourage freedom and liberty. Is there something else
you could do. Convince another democrat to vote freedom first, attend another pro-gun rally or meeting, call and write your congresscritter, get involved in local politics, run for office.

If we dont try , then we will deserve what
we end up with.

BEWARE COMPLACENCY. When the defication
impacts the air circulation equipment for real, you will be sitting back and saying ho-hum, another one!
But, by the time you realize it was not just another one you could ignore, but instead it was the big one...well you slept through it with your eyes wide open....and its too late now....nothing to be done etc and so forth.

How much is enough to wake us up; when we arise one morning and wonder when the USA became a Great Briton gun control style police state clone?

God helps those who help themselves.

End rant. gurr !:^) ;)
 
Ernest,
Law Dog's entirely correct. Accusing someone of treason because of the expression, "If I had to" is totally out of line. Re-read his post, please.
 
I must agree with Law Dog. And may I add that I've seen some pretty anti-government ranting coming from him as well....

Would I shoot/kill a person attacking my family? "If I had to..."
 
Here's another glob of mud to clear the waters: Every member of the military, Active, Reserve, and Guard swears an oath to "defend the Constitution against all enemies, foriegn and domestic....and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States", among other things. Millions of potential traitors? I may be over-reaching, but if wholesale confiscation became reality and enough people decided to go through with the "they can have my gun when they pry it from my cold dead fingers", some of the military would get involved.

By the way, on the "if I had to" stuff:
Would I kill someone attacking my family?
ABSOLUTELY!
(Thankfully I live in a state whose laws are liberally in favor of self defense, instead of the criminal that deserved what he got)
 
Just a thought I forgot to mention earlier: when cops say "they won't take mine, I'm law enforcement" do they realize they won't be law enforcement forever? That as soon as they're retired or seperated from the force, they become subject to the same gun laws binding everyone else? Maybe there will be a secret club for ex cops and military units like Rangers, SF, and SEALs. Maybe a government that disarmed its people won't be worried about thousands of elite-trained individuals who could own darn near any type and number of guns they wanted? Just a thought.
 
These two responses are fairly indicitive of the attitude that Ruger was talking about:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Officer--'Oh I can buy them IM Law enforcement.'
Officer--'They wont take mine, I work for them'[/quote]

These laws create classes of people. Some classes are more priviledged than others, and breeds a "holier-than-thou" attitude.

If the police can have them, so should the law-abiding citizen without additional hoops to jump through. Also, if the military can have them so should the law-abiding citizen without additional hoops to jump through.

Of course the latter situation would take more time to restore (as it has been taken from us)... but this created caste system has got to stop.

The city of Glendale, Arizona is strengthening this elitist view by not complying with state law, and treating gun owners like lepers.

I'll be testing Mesa's inturpretation later today. A report will be forthcoming.


------------------
John/az
"When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

www.cphv.COM & www.handguncontrol.NET are being sued by Handgun Control, Inc.!

See the "cease and desist" letter here: www.cphv.com/lawsuit.html
 
Thank you AZ2 I see someone was reading.
I know Im not much of a writer but had hoped most would see what you had.
Their was also that part where after saying
'if I have to I have to, you gotta pay the bills somehow'
in other words that hes getting paid to do it removes all moral objections he may have otherwise had.
Dennis our country was founded by men who were
anti-big government and would likely have heart attacks if they saw how big ours is today and the control it has over the people.
'If I had to' to save lives is a heck of a lot different than 'I had to' because the order was given or we can assume I mean apples and oranges and I just get off on making LEO's who arent going to come anywhere near me look bad.
Im very happy that officers can defend their lives and yes I think their'd be yet more crime if officers could not do so but...
when we start having moral-less sob's like this roaming the streets whom are blind to our civil rights and lives when the right oders are given its a scary thing to me.
The men in Lebanon,TN apparently cared as much as this fellow and did not make certain that they had accurate information like making certain any survalence of the perp was done to veryify indentification.
But they had to......otherwise this guy would of....
but its okay an investigation will be carried out and those like me who know it will be a huge joke are just anti-police.
www.ccops.org


------------------
"those who sacrifice
liberty for security deserve neither"
 
John/az2 makes an excellent point regarding "divide and conquer." "Officer--'They wont take mine, I work for them'" This is the same attitude that causes some hunters to say that since they don't own handguns or AR 15s they are exempt from the gun confiscation plans of the antis. I am something before I am a professional. I am a US citizen before I am a member of any profession including my own as as a career military man (now retired.) When these two collide I am first a defender of the Constitution and then a defender of my job. The young officer seemed to see himself as a person who, because of his profession, is exempt from confiscation and, therefore, isn't concerned about the average citizen. A BAD attitude. I know LawDog and Dennis aren't defending that attitude. I just wanted to echo the problem of shortsighted people in authority. Just because it doesn't seem to affect me NOW doesn't mean I should ignore that which is clearly wrong. It will get around to me sooner or later. Jerry
 
Much of this "post" does bring up the idea
how far someone will go or what they will
do to retain there job.? Also do we have
young people now in law enforcement and the
military who are "individuals" or the mob
type.What would you do as a young officer
with a family and ask by a supervisor to
do something that went against your idea
of right and wrong.? Do we have people now
with strong morals, values.???? Something to
ponder.
 
I was involved in an agency assist once where a man was convinced that pig-goat-human genetically-engineered commandos were training in his back yard, invading his house, and planning to kill him. They were invisible because of their "matrix-style camouflage" [his words]. He had just finished alcohol detox, and aparrently the drugs he'd been prescribed were interacting badly. His wife waited out in the locked family mini-van with the cell phone until we arrived, scared that he would think SHE was part of the conspiracy against him. She'd only been out of the house for 15 minutes, but when we spoke to him, he asserted that the conspiracists had obviously been in the house, because they'd stolen his shotgun. (the wife had hidden it.) This man was going to arm himself and defend himself against the "attackers" that he perceived were coming for him, even if it meant shooting at shadows.

It was absolutely correct that the deputy that finally arrived on-scene (it was actually in the county, not in my city) did remove the guns from the house at the wife's request. But this deputy would never have confiscated another citizen's guns "unless he needed to."

Now, it is possible, if not likely, that Ruger45's new cop acquaintance is an elitest Us-Them scum. But not necessarily. Perhaps he would only do so in the same type of instance that my deputy friend had to, but simply didn't feel like entertaining Ruger45. One failing of many, if not most cops is, unfortunately, cynicism. He may have been pulling your chain. Does THAT make him a traitor?

Ruger45, it's good to stand up for what's right. I'm glad you're not a moral coward, buddy. But as firearms advocates, we've ALL got to take the High Road. You had an opportunity to inspire thought within the officer regarding personal rights of citizens, and I can see that you tried. But when we devolve into name-calling, we fall from the High Road, and hurt our cause. We ALL have to remember that.

--L.P.

[This message has been edited by Long Path (edited October 24, 2000).]
 
While I agree with Lawdog about the "IF I had to" statement, I think he's missing the point of the conversation. Of course we all answer the question of would you shoot someone attacking your family as "IF we had to". But none would dare to answer the question of would you shoot someone for $1500 with if I had to pay the bills. That would make us assasins. The context of the question asked was would the officer raid a home of someone who has done nothing illegal, but own guns. At least that is how I took it. The guys answer was "If I have to I have to, you gotta pay the bills." This to me is the mark of a paid killer. Note that his answer was focused on paying bills, rather than enforcing the laws of the land, doing his duty as on officer of the law... NO, he wants to pay the bills by raiding peoples homes and possibly killing people. THAT scares me.

As for the rest, I agree with the divide and conquer policy of the anti's. It has worked very effectively. The questin I have for all those they wont take mine I work for them people, is didn't the SS eventually turn on the Brown shirts? Didnt Stalin eventually turn on his generals? Didnt the USA turn on its Indian scouts after the Indians were subdued. Wonder what it was like for those scouts living on the reservations. No friends what soever. Always having to watch your back. Must have sucked to be them. It is only a matter of time before they turn on you. Must suck to have to fight a dual front war.

------------------
"Liberty is never unalienable; it must be redeemed regularly with the blood of patriots or it always vanishes."
-R.A. Heinlein
 
Did they "have to" in Waco? Or in Miami Beach?

Most situations are not black-and-white. I think the part of the conversation that Ruger related indicates that this guy is the kind of A-hole who would go in if Reno told him to, no questions asked. That's enough of a traitor for me.

------------------
Brady
(No relation to that $%#$ bill)
 
I'll have to echo Brady's statement also, in the context ruger45 mentioned there is little doubt he did mean confiscation because it had been passed into law. LawDogs scenerio is legit, but in this case I doubt that is what the officer ment. If indeed he would confiscate a persons guns because they instituted it as a "law" then he would be in direct violation of the Constitution of the US and the oath he swore so therefore the term Traitor would be applicable.
 
That cop was mistaken anyway. A police officer can't just order any gun he wants from the company. It has to be done through the department, and I'm assuming that, except for sidearms, the weapon has to be kept at the police arms locker.

I agree that any free citizen of this country (by free, I mean people that aren't wanted by the police, out on parole, etc) should be able to buy any firearm that he/she wants, ESPECIALLY military type ones, because that's what the second ammendment is all about. The libs argue that "the NRA wants people to be able to buy tanks, nukes, missiles" but that's just nonsense. If any american could have access to a decent firearm, then it is impossible for tyranny to rule in this country and all the commie SOBs out there KNOW it. I don't think that if there were no gun control laws, you'd see too many people out there buying SAWs and M60s and the like, as such guns are rather pricey, but I'm willing to bet that every gun owner who is inclined to own a so-called "assault-weapon" would probably rather have a select-fire version...
 
Assuming and I hope so that your correct
Longpath (were taking the slow one in politics but still heading downward)
and that this officer was referring to all the recovering alchoholics and certifiable's
he feels hes likely to encounter in Tulsa,OK.
Would you give us more examples of how we should encourage inspiration for civillians rights in such officers.

It seems to me quite illegal gun confiscations ocurr more often each year and the PD's defense is rarely that theirs a certified paranoid or former alchoholic.
I personally think Sarah Brady whom some of us fell has been working out of the white house would certify all of us paranoids for wanting to own more than one gun or NOT have them registered.
I also feel compelled to throw in--
long ago JEWS were listed as basically
an infection in the organized society of
Germany and for the good of the common man the SS had to exterminate them or Germany would never be the pround nation we chose to be.
Now certainly were no where near their
certainly gunowners and Christians on not seen an infection on that scale.....
and certainly US government agents do not operate with any such sort of immunity to civil rights or human life but....I dont think were headed towrd a time where the citiznes get to pusish Elected officials for their betrayals of our either much less able even to call them that they are forever simply labeled as 'technicalities or regulations' by another elected official.

Nightcrawler--I agree with you on the buying the firearms I saw an officer at a local store looking over a sig with standard cap mag even after showing the dealer his badge the dealer told him hed have to get a letter from his department.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nightcrawler:
That cop was mistaken anyway. A police officer can't just order any gun he wants from the company. It has to be done through the department, and I'm assuming that, except for sidearms, the weapon has to be kept at the police arms locker.
[/quote]

Actually, Nightcrawler, that's a department-by-department basis. The only requirement for LEO-only equipment is that the officer present a letter on department stationary signed by the chief (or sheriff) that that particular officer may purchase that particular weapon for use in his duties as a peace officer. Many, if not most, officers carry these items home with them. What's the point of having an officer possess a weapon that is retained by the department?!? You might as well have the DEPARTMENT purchase it. There are places where officers are disallowed from bringing their weapons home (Ontario Metro officers, for instance), but most American officers can bring their OWN weapons home with them.

Please allow me to go on record as DEPLORING the elitism of "LEO-Only" firearms and accessories, even though I have every confidence that my chief will sign any request I put before him with regard to high-cap mags or "prohibited" carbines.

L.P.
 
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