Training vs Common Sense!

[buzz_knox]

It's should be noted that one of the benefits of training is an explanation of when not to shoot as much as when to shoot. Movement drills so that one can hit the target without being hit (or hitting a bystander) are an additonal benefit, since many ranges won't permit one to do so in general practice.

Knowing when not to shoot and how not to hit a bystander while "going dynamic" are necessitated by legal restrictions. Such restrictions often are far from common sense, as seen by many of the discussions on this and other forums.

As for common sense, it certianly can be taught. None of us was born with common sense but we were taught it through example and instruction.

 

[The Tourist]

lol Tourist, you buy their product.

And that's exactly what happened. A never-ending cavalcade of products and pictures. He even had the cajones to send me info on fighting with a Sicilian stiletto. Yikes, I've eaten pasta with a Sicilian stiletto since I was eight years old.

My ultimate problem, and this is speaking in general, is that all of these guys have a "plan." Everything else is flawed. Question the postulate of their philosophy and you're a troll. Do it often enough...

I made two observations in that forum. First, I've never seen "karate kid" moves win a bar-fight. The winner is the guy who clubs you with a barstool or other such furniture. I call it "furn-fu." The other observation I made was that the most dangerous brawlers I know are working cowboys. They absorb tremendous amounts of pain from the chores that would crush us.

In fact, I have gone on record, I won't fight a working cowboy, I surrender.

You can imagine how those observations went over in a forum with a sensei.

Here's my philosophy about knowledge and safety. If I know something, I impart that knowledge for free, not for a fee. You want info on knives because you have a need, I'll chat your ear off until the cows come home. I do pro bono work. I have a soft spot for veterans. Even my religion teaches me that those with gifts do not charge.

The answer to a young kid who tells these guys that he needs info on safety, and they know he is out-matched on the street, should not be a quip about "buying my book." It should be a clear recommendation to a dojo in his area where you have no financial ties.

BTW, do I fear these guys about my firm stand? Absolutely not, I have the ultimate weapon to protect myself from their magical combat training.

I carry a wet paper bag.

 

[MLeake]

Common sense

Lurper feels that common sense tells us most CCW holders have neither time nor inclination to get in shape or take any physical self defense training.

Interestingly, most of the CCW holders I know are military or martial arts training buddies. For me, in my microcosm of the world, common sense dictates that most CCW holders try to maintain some sort of physical regimen, and have at least basic training in hand to hand.

Guess it's all where you come from.

 

[Lurper]

Lurper feels that common sense tells us most CCW holders have neither time nor inclination to get in shape or take any physical self defense training.

Not common sense, experience. We run about 100 people through the CCW course per month. I can tell you that you and you friends are a very small minority of the sample.

 

[MLeake]

Note to Lurper

I believe you. I hope you won't take this the wrong way, but I find that discouraging.

Of course, in my civilian occupation, the preponderance of former military, plus the requirement for semi-annual physicals tends to keep people in shape. I work with some guys in their early 60's who are still decent athletes.

It kind of depresses me, when I travel overseas. It's easy to pick out the Americans, in general. They are the fat ones. You rarely see fat people in Italy, Japan, the Philippines...

I will point out an advantage to physical training, aside from health benefits. Generally speaking, a predator type will look at my friends and most likely decide it will be a better idea to wait for an easier looking victim. Being in shape provides not only a different look, but a different demeanor that can be quite handy for keeping the wolves at bay.

Again, this isn't about acting macho, or being the biggest and baddest. It is about training to a point where you are confident in your ability to move, to handle typical situations, and to be able to evade/escape if possible or to engage with decisive violence if necessary.

 

[The Canuck]

For all of my wasted time I received no more than posers posing for the camera. I feel silly in even admitting I fell for such hype. To show the depth of insanity, I actually learned more about fighting with edged weapons in a thirty year old book based on prison shiv attacks.

Funny you should mention that. A few friends of mine are scholars of the Renaissance fighting arts/sciences (I am lapsed) and they have made observations that what they have learned from Medievel and Renaissance German fighting texts about dagger (knife) fighting is now being rediscovered in no small part by prisoners. If it works, you win, if you win, you are alive to teach your crew what works, right? Sounds like the Meisters of old. Of strange coincidence, a lot of what I learned about knife fighting in the Army was eerily similar to what we studied in the old German fighting manuals.

 

[Lurper]

Discouraging or not, it's true. Nor does that diminish your points about physical fitness. I'm not saying that some of the training isn't good. I'm saying it's not applicable. You can have the best training system in the world, but if your students won't follow it, it can be worse than no training at all. So, it makes more sense to realistically assess your students and develop a program/philosophy that will work for their lifestyle.

 

[MLeake]

Tailoring plan to students' abilities

This is true for a lot of activities, not just shooting, so I have to agree with Lurper.

Caveat: If you think a student could realistically benefit from physical training, and would be willing to try it, you should encourage it.

Second caveat: This is easier to accomplish if you lead by example, IE what you do, not just what you recommend.

 

[BreacherUp!]

Canuck: Hey did you guys have to throw the buttstock over your shoulder for CQB too? Or did you have 4-pos?

"Short-stocking" (buttstock over the shoulder), was common years ago when using a 20" service rifle for MOUT. I believe it has very limited utility.
With the wider usage of 10"-14" rifles for MOUT/CQB, short-stocking is not seen nearly as much. Units today tend to teach keeping the butt in your shoulder, and thus, your sights where they should be.

I love it when combat experience nullifies TTPs created in peacetime.

 

[The Tourist]

dagger (knife) fighting

I agree. Most of the stuff I know is simply prison fighting. One biker handing down a few moves to keep another alive.

I also have 'married' knowledge with invention. The knife I carry is an Emerson design he made for SEALs.

 

[The Canuck]

"Short-stocking" (buttstock over the shoulder), was common years ago when using a 20" service rifle for MOUT. I believe it has very limited utility.
With the wider usage of 10"-14" rifles for MOUT/CQB, short-stocking is not seen nearly as much. Units today tend to teach keeping the butt in your shoulder, and thus, your sights where they should be.

I love it when combat experience nullifies TTPs created in peacetime.

Tell me about it. Our Infantry still don't get many carbines, but we did throw (in 2005) a 4-pos stock on our rifles!

 

[The Canuck]

The Tourist,

I still have my original 8" long straight steel fighting knife with the serations along the last two inches or so. It was great to use, it has simple rubber grips and no guard, cost me twenty bucks. A buddy of mine bought a $200.00 Gerber and lost it the second river we crossed!

The one thing I have observed is that when it comes to application, the stuff that works never dies.

 

[David Armstrong]

Discouraging or not, it's true. Nor does that diminish your points about physical fitness. I'm not saying that some of the training isn't good. I'm saying it's not applicable. You can have the best training system in the world, but if your students won't follow it, it can be worse than no training at all. So, it makes more sense to realistically assess your students and develop a program/philosophy that will work for their lifestyle.

Agreed, big time! In fact, it was moving into the CCW training field that caused me to have a bit of an awakening, and changed so much of my philosophy to "what will work best for the common gun owner" instead of "what is the latest and greatest for the high-speed low-drag performer" when it comes to training. Too many tend to think only in the context of the highly dedicated gun carrier, much to the detriment of the more common and typical gun owner.

 

[The Tourist]

the stuff that works never dies.

I agree. Here's what I've been carrying lately:

The top knife is my EDC, an Emerson HD-7. The one below is just inventory left over from reselling. As you can see, I've polished both of the edges. My intent was to use the little knife for opening things like those blister packs. I don't know what they use for plastic, but they are truly hard on a good edge.

However, Emerson's design is one of those that will undoubtedly be a classic. I carry one knife clipped to my right pocket, and the other on my left. I should always be able to get to at least one of them.

My belief is that no matter what your fighting discipline, any place you grab me will be sharp...