Training to fight rather than training to shoot
- Thread starter vito
- Start date
Old Wanderer
New member
Interesting discussions. Enjoyed reading the thread..
BUT as a really old guy, that has been carrying for almost 50 years and have worked professionally outside the country for a few years, there is one thing that I think people miss with training...and this is not the fun part..
PAIN....I used to instruct at a dojo in the 70's in Korea Town of Los Angeles. (Jujitsu and Wing Chou) I had a lot of LEO and also hookers for students...(Interesting mix in my classes
). I could get people trained to where technically they were pretty good. When I would push them a bit, and no longer hold back, so they had to take some solid hits, 80% would just fold up and not fight back....
Your reaction to pain will be just like your reaction to shooting, or fighting. Pain is your bodies alarm system, you need to shut it down and focus on the threat, it is just a mental thing....but from childhood we are taught to protect ourselves from pain. Whether you are in a physical confrontation, or a gun fight, you can get hit....DO NOT STOP TO TAKE CARE OF THE PAIN< KEEP FIGHTING UNTIL YOU HAVE WON>>>
I have never been shot, and had to keep in the fight, but I have collected an amazing collection of some green/purple/black/blue marks on the body, and was able to smile about it the following day, as I won the day before. Most confrontations are over in less than 30 seconds.
BUT as a really old guy, that has been carrying for almost 50 years and have worked professionally outside the country for a few years, there is one thing that I think people miss with training...and this is not the fun part..
PAIN....I used to instruct at a dojo in the 70's in Korea Town of Los Angeles. (Jujitsu and Wing Chou) I had a lot of LEO and also hookers for students...(Interesting mix in my classes
). I could get people trained to where technically they were pretty good. When I would push them a bit, and no longer hold back, so they had to take some solid hits, 80% would just fold up and not fight back....Your reaction to pain will be just like your reaction to shooting, or fighting. Pain is your bodies alarm system, you need to shut it down and focus on the threat, it is just a mental thing....but from childhood we are taught to protect ourselves from pain. Whether you are in a physical confrontation, or a gun fight, you can get hit....DO NOT STOP TO TAKE CARE OF THE PAIN< KEEP FIGHTING UNTIL YOU HAVE WON>>>
I have never been shot, and had to keep in the fight, but I have collected an amazing collection of some green/purple/black/blue marks on the body, and was able to smile about it the following day, as I won the day before. Most confrontations are over in less than 30 seconds.
Interesting thread.
I find myself in agreement with the sentiment that there isn't a good substitute for good fundamentals. Luck can fall one way or another, but good fundamentals makes for good preparation.
Over my years of arts training I always found the better prepared folks were those who didn't loose sight of their foundation skills. They continued to revisit their foundation, refining and looking for new insights into the foundation skills upon which more 'advanced' skills were developed. Constantly renewing an understanding of the foundation upon which everything else is built is nothing to denigrate.
As a LE firearms instructor I respected the older generation of LE folks who learned to use revolvers in their work. Granted, I might be a bit more inclined to grant them that respect ... seeing as how I came in on the tail end of the revolver era in LE, myself.
I carried a M66 and then later a M686 as issued weapons for several years until we adopted 9mm pistols.
Many of those earlier revolver users may not have been as anxious to transition to the new-fangled high capacity semiauto pistols as the younger folks, but a good foundation of traditional double action revolver skills can make for some good pistol shooting skills. Being able to smoothly cycle a heavy DA revolver trigger while using the sights as necessary to make effective use of a limited number of rounds available in a Magnum revolver does seem to make for some effective pistols users upon occasion.
Personally, I always found it easier to help a revolver shooter make the transition to effective pistol shooter than the other way around, especially if the pistol user had developed his/her skills around the philosophy that having a light trigger and a high capacity magazine offset the need to develop a good foundation regarding shooting skills.
Pain hurts. Being surprised and unnecessarily distracted by pain can cost awareness, attention/focus and time better applied toward surviving the moment. Training can help to work through it and lessen the perception of it.
Foundation skills. Shooting, like other physical activities, is generally considered a perishable skill set and often requires sufficient practice in order to effectively retain a high degree of those skills, especially under stress.
Mindset, mindset, mindset.
Consider reading a book called FORCE UNDER PRESSURE, How Cops Live and Why They Die, by Lawrence N. Blum, Ph.D.
I find myself in agreement with the sentiment that there isn't a good substitute for good fundamentals. Luck can fall one way or another, but good fundamentals makes for good preparation.
Over my years of arts training I always found the better prepared folks were those who didn't loose sight of their foundation skills. They continued to revisit their foundation, refining and looking for new insights into the foundation skills upon which more 'advanced' skills were developed. Constantly renewing an understanding of the foundation upon which everything else is built is nothing to denigrate.
As a LE firearms instructor I respected the older generation of LE folks who learned to use revolvers in their work. Granted, I might be a bit more inclined to grant them that respect ... seeing as how I came in on the tail end of the revolver era in LE, myself.
I carried a M66 and then later a M686 as issued weapons for several years until we adopted 9mm pistols. Many of those earlier revolver users may not have been as anxious to transition to the new-fangled high capacity semiauto pistols as the younger folks, but a good foundation of traditional double action revolver skills can make for some good pistol shooting skills. Being able to smoothly cycle a heavy DA revolver trigger while using the sights as necessary to make effective use of a limited number of rounds available in a Magnum revolver does seem to make for some effective pistols users upon occasion.
Personally, I always found it easier to help a revolver shooter make the transition to effective pistol shooter than the other way around, especially if the pistol user had developed his/her skills around the philosophy that having a light trigger and a high capacity magazine offset the need to develop a good foundation regarding shooting skills.
Pain hurts. Being surprised and unnecessarily distracted by pain can cost awareness, attention/focus and time better applied toward surviving the moment. Training can help to work through it and lessen the perception of it.
Foundation skills. Shooting, like other physical activities, is generally considered a perishable skill set and often requires sufficient practice in order to effectively retain a high degree of those skills, especially under stress.
Mindset, mindset, mindset.
Consider reading a book called FORCE UNDER PRESSURE, How Cops Live and Why They Die, by Lawrence N. Blum, Ph.D.
Last edited:
Here are a few more comments for this particularly good thread.
One, I grew up getting into fights all the time (probably doesn't sound like me, does it?). I was taken to the hospital more than once to get stitched back together. But that wasn't so unusual in the 1950's, I suspect, though I have nothing to back up that belief. These days, it would probably be thought exceptional, unless perhaps you lived in the inner city. The point is, younger people are less likely to be physically reactive to threats, though I could easily be wrong. This includes accepting the fact that in fights, you get hurt, even if you win. And it also includes accepting the fact that you may have to fight, even if it is not a good idea and perhaps even if you have no chance of winning. I realize that some may argue those points. But those ideas I have formed from my own experiences. Being willing to fight even if you have no chance of winning might keep you out of a fight now and then. Notice I haven't mentioned guns or even weapons. Same rules apply.
Second, the same rules don't apply to everyone (here we are with contradictory rules again). By this I mean that the rules that the police operate under with regards to fighting will not be the same that the private citizen operates under. In theory, the private citizen may not be agressive, in a manner of speaking, in the way the police can be, presumably because the private citizen's actions are limited to self defense. While it usually doesn't require the private citizen to run away, which is sometimes a good idea, it generally prevents him from pursuing an assailant. On the other hand, the policeman probably is prevented from running away, though sometimes a tactical retreat is in order. So in reading various writers ideas about self-defense, consider what their background was.
Finally, it is said that in sniper school, they just teach the same things taught at the basic level, only the students are listening.
One, I grew up getting into fights all the time (probably doesn't sound like me, does it?). I was taken to the hospital more than once to get stitched back together. But that wasn't so unusual in the 1950's, I suspect, though I have nothing to back up that belief. These days, it would probably be thought exceptional, unless perhaps you lived in the inner city. The point is, younger people are less likely to be physically reactive to threats, though I could easily be wrong. This includes accepting the fact that in fights, you get hurt, even if you win. And it also includes accepting the fact that you may have to fight, even if it is not a good idea and perhaps even if you have no chance of winning. I realize that some may argue those points. But those ideas I have formed from my own experiences. Being willing to fight even if you have no chance of winning might keep you out of a fight now and then. Notice I haven't mentioned guns or even weapons. Same rules apply.
Second, the same rules don't apply to everyone (here we are with contradictory rules again). By this I mean that the rules that the police operate under with regards to fighting will not be the same that the private citizen operates under. In theory, the private citizen may not be agressive, in a manner of speaking, in the way the police can be, presumably because the private citizen's actions are limited to self defense. While it usually doesn't require the private citizen to run away, which is sometimes a good idea, it generally prevents him from pursuing an assailant. On the other hand, the policeman probably is prevented from running away, though sometimes a tactical retreat is in order. So in reading various writers ideas about self-defense, consider what their background was.
Finally, it is said that in sniper school, they just teach the same things taught at the basic level, only the students are listening.
No CCW in IL
Vito,
As there is no CCW possible living in Illinois, getting in to a gun altercation legally whilst carrying a Pistol, is not possible.
But in your house it is possible, so running around on a dusty range getting special forces type training could be a waste of money.
Going armed in the house is OK? So home invasion training is one area you can explore, picking up a pistol from a bed side table can be mimicked on a range, placing targets at the range, at distances available in your home, on said range is possible, using IDPA cardboard targets, sliced shoulder to opposite hip could give you a peeping tom aspect you could meet inside your home.
Always fire twice, each time you practice this type of random target acquisition shooting? Why? Why not.
Vito,
As there is no CCW possible living in Illinois, getting in to a gun altercation legally whilst carrying a Pistol, is not possible.
But in your house it is possible, so running around on a dusty range getting special forces type training could be a waste of money.
Going armed in the house is OK? So home invasion training is one area you can explore, picking up a pistol from a bed side table can be mimicked on a range, placing targets at the range, at distances available in your home, on said range is possible, using IDPA cardboard targets, sliced shoulder to opposite hip could give you a peeping tom aspect you could meet inside your home.
Always fire twice, each time you practice this type of random target acquisition shooting? Why? Why not.
Having gun ready in hand...
... legal issues aside, don't forget that a smart BG won't give warnings. Unless you never walk around the corners of buildings, panel vans, etc, you will inevitably wander past potential hiding spots that may not get your attention.
So, what will you do if physical contact is initiated before your senses have caught up to the problem?
This is where training for movement, drawing, etc may come in handy.
... legal issues aside, don't forget that a smart BG won't give warnings. Unless you never walk around the corners of buildings, panel vans, etc, you will inevitably wander past potential hiding spots that may not get your attention.
So, what will you do if physical contact is initiated before your senses have caught up to the problem?
This is where training for movement, drawing, etc may come in handy.
See the thread at http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206311 , and look at the schedules of some of the itinerant instructors. They bring the training to ranges in your area, so you don't have to travel halfway across the country to them.
IMHO there's a difference between learning to shoot and learning to fight with a gun. If you've pretty well mastered the fundamentals of safety, shooting and hitting, loading/unloading/reloading/clearing stoppages, drawing from a holster and reholstering- then you're ready for most any instructor's basic handgun class.
You will be shooting in class, yes- but what you will be LEARNING is how to fight with a gun.
Don't let age and physical limitations worry you. Tell the instructor up front if you have problems. They will work with you. You may have to live with a little extra attention during breaks, lunch etc. but a good instructor will see to it you get your moneys' worth. After all, you paid as much as everyone else to be there- it's your class too. And if you need help with something, a good instructor will see that you get it.
I've had the benefit of some excellent trainers, and to my mind, the expert eye diagnosing what you are doing while you do it on the firing line is the best thing about training. My wife and I just got back from Louis Awerbuck's tactical handgun refresher not long ago, and Louis is IMHO the best diagnostician in a business that is in general full of sharp eyed, experienced trainers. There will be suggestions of better ways to do things, options to explore, in short your learning curve will be substantially steepened by working with a good trainer in a way absolutely nothing else can do for you. Shooting a million rounds on a flat range all by yourself won't do that for you.
Best advice I can give is to pick an instructor and go for it, the sooner the better.
lpl
IMHO there's a difference between learning to shoot and learning to fight with a gun. If you've pretty well mastered the fundamentals of safety, shooting and hitting, loading/unloading/reloading/clearing stoppages, drawing from a holster and reholstering- then you're ready for most any instructor's basic handgun class.
You will be shooting in class, yes- but what you will be LEARNING is how to fight with a gun.
Don't let age and physical limitations worry you. Tell the instructor up front if you have problems. They will work with you. You may have to live with a little extra attention during breaks, lunch etc. but a good instructor will see to it you get your moneys' worth. After all, you paid as much as everyone else to be there- it's your class too. And if you need help with something, a good instructor will see that you get it.
I've had the benefit of some excellent trainers, and to my mind, the expert eye diagnosing what you are doing while you do it on the firing line is the best thing about training. My wife and I just got back from Louis Awerbuck's tactical handgun refresher not long ago, and Louis is IMHO the best diagnostician in a business that is in general full of sharp eyed, experienced trainers. There will be suggestions of better ways to do things, options to explore, in short your learning curve will be substantially steepened by working with a good trainer in a way absolutely nothing else can do for you. Shooting a million rounds on a flat range all by yourself won't do that for you.
Best advice I can give is to pick an instructor and go for it, the sooner the better.
lpl
gut shot failure to fire
I was watching the Outdoor Channel and one of the shooting programs (I don't remember which one. Possibly Best Defense or Shooting USA?) had an instructor demonstrate what "Gut Shots" using a 1911 will not work.
Basically, he racked the slide and fired one round in to the embankment to prove that the gun was loaded and capable of firing. Then he went to the cardboard target and jambed his 1911 in to the target as you would in a FoF Gut Shot. He pulled the trigger multiple times and only got "click, click, click". Then he pulled the gun back about an inch from the target and BANG!
The point was that if you press the muzzle of your semi-auto pistol in to a target, it will likely slightly push the slide back and disengage the firing mechanizimI was watching the Outdoor Channel and one of the shooting programs (I don't remember which one; Possibly Best Defense or Shooting USA) had an instructor demonstrate that "Gut Shots" using a 1911 will not work.
Basically, he racked the slide and fired one round in to the embankment to prove that the gun was loaded and capable of firing. Then he went to the cardboard target and jammed his 1911 in to the target as you would in a FoF Gut Shot. He pulled the trigger multiple times and only got "click, click, and click". Then he pulled the gun back about an inch from the target and BANG!
The point was that if you press the muzzle of your semi-auto pistol in to a target, it will likely slightly push the slide back and disengage the firing mechanism. He then went on to explain that you need to keep your gun clear of the target and yourself so that the slide will not catch on your clothing and so you do not shoot yourself.
Be aware, in a FoF situation where a gut shot is called for you will need space (even if only 1 millimeter) between your muzzle and the target. Also keep space between your side and the gun otherwise you and your clothing could be entangled in the cycling slide.
I was watching the Outdoor Channel and one of the shooting programs (I don't remember which one. Possibly Best Defense or Shooting USA?) had an instructor demonstrate what "Gut Shots" using a 1911 will not work.
Basically, he racked the slide and fired one round in to the embankment to prove that the gun was loaded and capable of firing. Then he went to the cardboard target and jambed his 1911 in to the target as you would in a FoF Gut Shot. He pulled the trigger multiple times and only got "click, click, click". Then he pulled the gun back about an inch from the target and BANG!
The point was that if you press the muzzle of your semi-auto pistol in to a target, it will likely slightly push the slide back and disengage the firing mechanizimI was watching the Outdoor Channel and one of the shooting programs (I don't remember which one; Possibly Best Defense or Shooting USA) had an instructor demonstrate that "Gut Shots" using a 1911 will not work.
Basically, he racked the slide and fired one round in to the embankment to prove that the gun was loaded and capable of firing. Then he went to the cardboard target and jammed his 1911 in to the target as you would in a FoF Gut Shot. He pulled the trigger multiple times and only got "click, click, and click". Then he pulled the gun back about an inch from the target and BANG!
The point was that if you press the muzzle of your semi-auto pistol in to a target, it will likely slightly push the slide back and disengage the firing mechanism. He then went on to explain that you need to keep your gun clear of the target and yourself so that the slide will not catch on your clothing and so you do not shoot yourself.
Be aware, in a FoF situation where a gut shot is called for you will need space (even if only 1 millimeter) between your muzzle and the target. Also keep space between your side and the gun otherwise you and your clothing could be entangled in the cycling slide.
http://www.odmp.org/officer/11072-patrol-agent-john-a.-rector
Whenever I hear people touting Bill Jordan, I always feel the need to also memorialize the only person Bill Jordan ever shot, John Rector, USBP.
RIP
Whenever I hear people touting Bill Jordan, I always feel the need to also memorialize the only person Bill Jordan ever shot, John Rector, USBP.
RIP
WW2, gut shots won't work with a 1911 only if the gun is pushed hard against the opponent's body. If it is just held there, it will fire. And also note that that is the case only with a recoil operated pistol; a blowback pistol (or a revolver) will work just fine when pressed against the target. In other words, it you are on the receiving end of a pistol shoved into your gut, better examine it closely (of course you can do this calmly and carefully!) to see if it won't fire.
I have spent a fair amount of time on ranges, firing formal bullseye, bowling pins, iron animals, gongs, etc., and have taken LE courses. I am not sure any of that time would really prepare me for a close and unexpected encounter of the wrong kind. Familiarity with the pistol is important, because at three feet (10 is long range in a real gunfight) you can't make many mistakes. And I think it is incredibly stupid to carry more than one type of gun. If you carry a Glock on Monday, a M1911 on Tuesday, a PPK on Wednesday, you are not a gunfighter, you are a gun collector who just likes to tote his collection around. And you may die, frantically trying to pull the trigger on a cocked and locked 1911 because you forgot it wasn't Monday.
Jim
I have spent a fair amount of time on ranges, firing formal bullseye, bowling pins, iron animals, gongs, etc., and have taken LE courses. I am not sure any of that time would really prepare me for a close and unexpected encounter of the wrong kind. Familiarity with the pistol is important, because at three feet (10 is long range in a real gunfight) you can't make many mistakes. And I think it is incredibly stupid to carry more than one type of gun. If you carry a Glock on Monday, a M1911 on Tuesday, a PPK on Wednesday, you are not a gunfighter, you are a gun collector who just likes to tote his collection around. And you may die, frantically trying to pull the trigger on a cocked and locked 1911 because you forgot it wasn't Monday.
Jim
robmkivseries70
New member
Just to reiterate what Jim said, I was doing double taps with my BHP and was caught standing there pulling the trigger with out reseting it. I started with the 1911 many years ago and under some pressure I defaulted to that trigger reset. 
Best,
Rob
Best,
Rob
Marty Hayes
New member
Based on 30 years in law enforcement and 20 years as a full-time firearms instructor, I would estimate that in the grand scheme of armed self-defense, the actual "gunfight" and who wins that based on bullets striking their intended target is about 20-30 percent of the equation. Other aspects of armed self-defense, including tactical preparation, equipment selection, legal studies and mindset development cover the other precent. So, based on the above theory, perhaps some time spent on the other areas is as critical or even more so as going to a force-on-force gunfighting school.
Being in IL, you may want to check out Tactical Respones's FOF class, as they are often held near indianapolis. FWIW, I've had pistol classes and rifle classes, but FoF was incredible. It's kinda like SERE; you don't get a fancy badge, or jump outta planes, but you learn an incredible amount about yourself.
Check Out Target Focus Training
Posted this before somewhere here, but check out Tim Larkin's system, Target Focus Training (targetfocustraining.com) I've learned an awful lot just from his free stuff, and have subscribed to his online training videos. He is very big on mindset, and using violence as a tool against those who would use it against you. I'm hoping to make time to take his training class here in Hawaii next month, and will post results then, if I go.
Looks like very good stuff--he is former SCARS instructor.
Posted this before somewhere here, but check out Tim Larkin's system, Target Focus Training (targetfocustraining.com) I've learned an awful lot just from his free stuff, and have subscribed to his online training videos. He is very big on mindset, and using violence as a tool against those who would use it against you. I'm hoping to make time to take his training class here in Hawaii next month, and will post results then, if I go.
Looks like very good stuff--he is former SCARS instructor.
Slide protector
Saw a wicked looking device to allow push against body/head, and press trigger on a .45 at an exhibit, full sized 1911, 1/16" piece of steel, fastened to the front of the frame, came up in front of the muzzle, but the design allowed the pistol to fire when pressed against an object, 3 sharp short spikes stopped it slipping.
Just saw one of these, around 15 years ago. It was under glass so you could not handle it.
Saw a wicked looking device to allow push against body/head, and press trigger on a .45 at an exhibit, full sized 1911, 1/16" piece of steel, fastened to the front of the frame, came up in front of the muzzle, but the design allowed the pistol to fire when pressed against an object, 3 sharp short spikes stopped it slipping.
Just saw one of these, around 15 years ago. It was under glass so you could not handle it.
Executive Solution
New member
Train as you fight, fight as you train............I think I have heard that some where before! www.floridafireamstraining.com
Guns are tools, training to use those tools or any other defensive / offensive tools in a REALISTIC environment is what wins fights. Shooting IS part of the equation, (lets face it, if you don't hit the guy, all the other training ain't worth squat) but I say again shooting is ONLY part of the equation.
Guns are tools, training to use those tools or any other defensive / offensive tools in a REALISTIC environment is what wins fights. Shooting IS part of the equation, (lets face it, if you don't hit the guy, all the other training ain't worth squat) but I say again shooting is ONLY part of the equation.