I subscribe to the Suarez International newsletters, and while I have never had the chance to take one of his courses, his columns make real sense to me. The most recent dealt with Force on Force training, and it seems that is what many of us own and/or carry a gun for, i.e., the unexpected encounter with someone who wants to use force to harm us. I've often wondered how valuable it is to spend a lot of time and ammo at the range carefully trying to achieve close groups in a methodical and relaxed situation. Unfortunately I live in IL, and his classes are in TX or AZ, and being in my 60's, with diminished visual acuity, with more of a gut than I like to admit to, I've wondered how well I could do in his programs. Recently I have been practicing point-and-shoot with my 2-in J frame and my new Ruger LCP at about 10 feet distance. I'm fairly confident that at this close range I can hit the center mass pretty regularly despite my poor vision, but wonder if in the chaos of being attacked I would react quickly enough to be effective. Maybe once I retire I'll actually sign up for one of Suarez's classes.
Training to fight rather than training to shoot
- Thread starter vito
- Start date
In a chaotic shooting situation, you will respond as you have been trained, or have trained yourself. If you practice shooting good groups, that will help you. Familiarity with the weapon is essential.
You can do some training on your own by imagining the target as a dangerous adversary and drilling over and over, bringing your firearm into play and placing a few shots where they count on the target. Do that repeately and it will become ingrained, and your skills will improve.
I do not think quick draw skills are so important to an armed citizen. You need to have the firearm out before it is time to shoot. But bringing it up and into play is important. Taking an aggressive stance, and focusing on what you imagine is a dangerous target, then shooting for center mass, is a drill that you can practice. The better you get at it, the better your groups will be. Quick target aquisition and tight groups, are critical, especially when you are in a life and death situation. That kind of training will help, even if it is not at some expert's class. Good luck with it!
You can do some training on your own by imagining the target as a dangerous adversary and drilling over and over, bringing your firearm into play and placing a few shots where they count on the target. Do that repeately and it will become ingrained, and your skills will improve.
I do not think quick draw skills are so important to an armed citizen. You need to have the firearm out before it is time to shoot. But bringing it up and into play is important. Taking an aggressive stance, and focusing on what you imagine is a dangerous target, then shooting for center mass, is a drill that you can practice. The better you get at it, the better your groups will be. Quick target aquisition and tight groups, are critical, especially when you are in a life and death situation. That kind of training will help, even if it is not at some expert's class. Good luck with it!
I am certainly not trained in any formal ccw training. I am, however, of the mindset that any weapon is an extension of my hand from my hands on up to a gun. Anything I can get in my hand can increase my likelihood of surviving with more of my health than barehanded. A roll of dimes or set of keys beats nothing.
So as one poster said, the draw is not as important since it should already be out if the carrier is aware of the impending threat. There are some times when even the best of us misses a clue or the perp is just that well concealed or convincing. At these times it may be too late to safely draw and fire without excessive risk of giving up your gun and having it used against you. But several of the various physical impacts can be used to put the distance to afford you time to draw...
Just my thought on it... YMMV...
Brent
So as one poster said, the draw is not as important since it should already be out if the carrier is aware of the impending threat. There are some times when even the best of us misses a clue or the perp is just that well concealed or convincing. At these times it may be too late to safely draw and fire without excessive risk of giving up your gun and having it used against you. But several of the various physical impacts can be used to put the distance to afford you time to draw...
Just my thought on it... YMMV...
Brent
THEZACHARIAS
New member
The closest thing youll get to being truly under fire and being able to return fire in turn will be paintball in some form or another. However, thats not always an option depending on the person themself, or a lack of knowledgable people around you. Theres also a big big difference between a training excercise using paintballs or sim-munitions and hitting the local field with a bunch of random middle school kids.
I am not sure that fast draw is unimportant or that the armed citizen will have gun in hand when it is needed. A uniformed police officer can draw any time he/she feels the need, but a citizen is usually more restrained, perhaps by law. (In this respect, a plain clothes officer is in the same category as an armed citizen.) If a citizen, seeing what appears to be a dangerous situation, draws his/her gun, there is a high possibility of creating panic and increasing, not decreasing, the chance of an armed confrontation as well as the chances of being the victim of armed police who will assume that any one with a gun is the "BG" and act accordingly. (Yes, plain clothes officers have been killed by uniformed police under exactly those circumstances, which is why police have signals and code words to identify themselves to fellow officers; the citizen does not have that advantage.)
All of which means that in general, the armed citizen may not display a gun until it becomes clear what is happening and who the BG is, and then a fast draw may be necessary. Another time is when an attack is totally unexpected, as when a person passing by turns and stabs the citizen, as has happened. There is no reasonable way to totally prevent such a thing, but carrying a gun in one's hand is not an acceptable approach in our society.
One poster on another site suggested never allowing anyone within a certain distance; that might be a viable and safe tactic in the desert, but is hardly a good idea on the typical city street.
Running around in the woods playing paintball may be fun and perhaps good training for the military, but it is not realistic training for common self defense situations.
Jim
All of which means that in general, the armed citizen may not display a gun until it becomes clear what is happening and who the BG is, and then a fast draw may be necessary. Another time is when an attack is totally unexpected, as when a person passing by turns and stabs the citizen, as has happened. There is no reasonable way to totally prevent such a thing, but carrying a gun in one's hand is not an acceptable approach in our society.
One poster on another site suggested never allowing anyone within a certain distance; that might be a viable and safe tactic in the desert, but is hardly a good idea on the typical city street.
Running around in the woods playing paintball may be fun and perhaps good training for the military, but it is not realistic training for common self defense situations.
Jim
SquidWarrior
New member
With due(mind you, very respectfull) regard to your age and physical condition, it might not be a good idea to attend this training. I have never attended this particular class, but I have been trained in similar forms of close quarter pistol combat; it is pretty intense. Besides, at your age, if you are forced to employ this training against a younger VC in better physical condition, you have a far better chance of survival if you draw and jam the muzel of your weapon into his gut.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
I've been fortunate enough to have some formal pistol training as well as some Force-on-Force training using Simunitions. One of the big things that range work helps with is learning to use the firearm the same way you drive a car - instinctively. Everything you can learn to do on "automatic" frees your brain up for thinking about the dynamics of the actual encounter you are in.
You don't have to think to yourself.... OK, draw straight up, offhand on chest, now rotate and extend, focus on the front sight, other hand comes out, pull straight back, don't jerk the trigger. All of that stuff is happening automatically based on how you trained; because your brain has 20 other things to think of - Are there other guys? He just ran behind that wall now what? Where is my nearest cover? etc.
If you are standing there thinking "What kind of stoppage is that and what was the drill for clearing it?" Chances are extremely good that round of Sims is already over and you were not the victor. To the extent, you can train yourself to good habits with range time, it frees up your brain to think about the more important elements of each individual scenario.
You don't have to think to yourself.... OK, draw straight up, offhand on chest, now rotate and extend, focus on the front sight, other hand comes out, pull straight back, don't jerk the trigger. All of that stuff is happening automatically based on how you trained; because your brain has 20 other things to think of - Are there other guys? He just ran behind that wall now what? Where is my nearest cover? etc.
If you are standing there thinking "What kind of stoppage is that and what was the drill for clearing it?" Chances are extremely good that round of Sims is already over and you were not the victor. To the extent, you can train yourself to good habits with range time, it frees up your brain to think about the more important elements of each individual scenario.
A good alternative for people that can't afford or have no desire to attend a formal class or do Force on Force training is to try their hand at practical pistol competition, such as USPSA or IDPA. In both of these pistol games (which is important to remember that they are games) you're solving a shooting problem under simulated stress, and engaging multiple targets in a threat environment. It's not a gunfight by any stretch, but it is a stressful environment, and shooting under these conditions will help you increase familiarity with your defensive firearm.
Mr.Roberts seems to say what I never can figger out how to say!
Instinct is what I meant by every tool I can get in my hand is just an extension of my hand. I often "self trained" on my land with them junk re-loads from the range. The guy once advised me they were not reliable enuff for training... I told him after using them in his range I was well aware and couldn't find any crappy ammo of factory make... He scrunched his fore head at that and I told him I needed to practice instinctively clearing jams and his ammo was perfect for this... We both got a chuckle at that....
Brent
Instinct is what I meant by every tool I can get in my hand is just an extension of my hand. I often "self trained" on my land with them junk re-loads from the range. The guy once advised me they were not reliable enuff for training... I told him after using them in his range I was well aware and couldn't find any crappy ammo of factory make... He scrunched his fore head at that and I told him I needed to practice instinctively clearing jams and his ammo was perfect for this... We both got a chuckle at that....
Brent
SilentSoul
New member
I have no formal training with firearms in a "self defense" manner, but i have been very involved in martial arts for many years, started with northern shaolin kung fu when i was 9, i have branched off into many different styles and schools of thought, there is a lot of theory that gets bounced around.. though for some reason, the two sections of the "self defense" community never seem to come together, i was taught to use what was available.. turning your body into a "weapon" is one thing, having an actual weapon will always be preferred
another thing that has stuck with me, was a rather childish discussion with a friend about a modern day "ninja" i insisted that they still exist, in the form of some highly trained units, using the term "special forces" as some what of an umbrella term, back in the days of the good ol ninja.. it was common practice to be deceiving, the target might find himself at the pointy end of a farm tool, after walking past an innocent looking dirty rice farmer... the point is (no pun intended) they used the weapons they had.. and learned to be very deadly with them, the same logic is still applied today, at least in my opinion, and today.. we have guns
what i am getting at.. is the fact that i think its best to train body and mind, regardless of what weapon you have in your hand, same rules apply, remain calm and think clearly, i spent my years doing the drills, pounding the forms and techniques into my body, preparing my mind for that moment... when it finally came, i forgot every single thing i spent so long trying to learn... EXCEPT the most important thing, my mind was clear and i knew what i had to do, if not exactly how to do it off the top of my head, no game plan so to speak, the end result was a complete blank in my mind for awhile, i could not remember exactly what had occurred, all i knew is my face hurt and my right hand felt like it was broken
i was attacked from behind, had no idea it was coming, caught a right hook to the cheek, a bit dazed from it and mostly surprised, the next swing was redirected away from me and countered with a very solid shot to the face... not the best idea, hit hard targets soft and soft targets hard, i forgot that little idea, it was a horrible experience, my first fight... i handled it very poorly, but we have to learn somehow, at least no one died
Bruce Lee said "be water" im sure everyone knows the rest, but how many know what he meant? i prefer the analogy of being a tree, blown by the wind... rooted solidly at its base, strong and confident.. able to roll with the punches, if the wind blows, do the tree branches pause for a second, to think which way they should move? no, its not a matter of instinct, its just what must happen, its very hard to find that balance, to be able to mindlessly react to any situation correctly
if you are attacked by an armed attacker, that doe intend to kill you, and you have a gun in your pocket, what will you do? is it locked and loaded, can you draw and get a shot off before he can close the distance, do you even need to use the gun.. can you cancel his threat without it, if not then what are the risk factors in your surroundings, could you harm an innocent by mistake, all of this and so much more will undoubtedly race through your mind in that split second, can you really afford to waste that much time?
i know i seem to be rambling on with no real answers, but thats because i don't know the answers and i don't think there are any, every situation will be different, and you can never fully prepare for any of them, but we at least owe it to ourselves and others, to keep trying to reach that next level of awareness and physical capability, through training both mind and body
but never forget the real purpose of training, it is.. and always has been, to get our body in the condition to preform the task that our mind sets for us, whatever that may be
again, just my .02, i have no formal training with firearms, but i have years of training and experience with self-defense
(wow.. i can talk a lot sometimes )
another thing that has stuck with me, was a rather childish discussion with a friend about a modern day "ninja" i insisted that they still exist, in the form of some highly trained units, using the term "special forces" as some what of an umbrella term, back in the days of the good ol ninja.. it was common practice to be deceiving, the target might find himself at the pointy end of a farm tool, after walking past an innocent looking dirty rice farmer... the point is (no pun intended) they used the weapons they had.. and learned to be very deadly with them, the same logic is still applied today, at least in my opinion, and today.. we have guns
what i am getting at.. is the fact that i think its best to train body and mind, regardless of what weapon you have in your hand, same rules apply, remain calm and think clearly, i spent my years doing the drills, pounding the forms and techniques into my body, preparing my mind for that moment... when it finally came, i forgot every single thing i spent so long trying to learn... EXCEPT the most important thing, my mind was clear and i knew what i had to do, if not exactly how to do it off the top of my head, no game plan so to speak, the end result was a complete blank in my mind for awhile, i could not remember exactly what had occurred, all i knew is my face hurt and my right hand felt like it was broken
i was attacked from behind, had no idea it was coming, caught a right hook to the cheek, a bit dazed from it and mostly surprised, the next swing was redirected away from me and countered with a very solid shot to the face... not the best idea, hit hard targets soft and soft targets hard, i forgot that little idea
, it was a horrible experience, my first fight... i handled it very poorly, but we have to learn somehow, at least no one diedBruce Lee said "be water" im sure everyone knows the rest, but how many know what he meant? i prefer the analogy of being a tree, blown by the wind... rooted solidly at its base, strong and confident.. able to roll with the punches, if the wind blows, do the tree branches pause for a second, to think which way they should move? no, its not a matter of instinct, its just what must happen, its very hard to find that balance, to be able to mindlessly react to any situation correctly
if you are attacked by an armed attacker, that doe intend to kill you, and you have a gun in your pocket, what will you do? is it locked and loaded, can you draw and get a shot off before he can close the distance, do you even need to use the gun.. can you cancel his threat without it, if not then what are the risk factors in your surroundings, could you harm an innocent by mistake, all of this and so much more will undoubtedly race through your mind in that split second, can you really afford to waste that much time?
i know i seem to be rambling on with no real answers, but thats because i don't know the answers and i don't think there are any, every situation will be different, and you can never fully prepare for any of them, but we at least owe it to ourselves and others, to keep trying to reach that next level of awareness and physical capability, through training both mind and body
but never forget the real purpose of training, it is.. and always has been, to get our body in the condition to preform the task that our mind sets for us, whatever that may be
again, just my .02, i have no formal training with firearms, but i have years of training and experience with self-defense
(wow.. i can talk a lot sometimes
)anythingshiny
New member
training is a tool...fill your tool box.
take as many classes as you can and learn from each..do your homework on the company, but within the shooting/training/secret squirrel community there are really only a handful of well recognized schools.
You are 100% correct though..it will be a FIGHT! not a flat range..so train to FIGHT!
FoF is an eyeopener for most.
take as many classes as you can and learn from each..do your homework on the company, but within the shooting/training/secret squirrel community there are really only a handful of well recognized schools.
You are 100% correct though..it will be a FIGHT! not a flat range..so train to FIGHT!
FoF is an eyeopener for most.
Vito, do yourself a favor and take a Suarez course. Gabe is one of the best instructors out there. He actually offers courses all over the world. Take his basic course first and get an idea from there what you think you can and can't handle physically. As long as you don't have any heart problems and you can still move, get up and down off the ground, you should be fine for 95% of the training out there. Keep in mind, most of the good instructors are all at least in their 40s. These are typically not ninja courses designed for 19yr olds.
I think it's a waste of time after a certain point. I say shoot the first 500-1000 rounds from your weapon "slow and steady" to break the gun in and acclimate yourself to it, and the first 25-50 rounds of each training session after that, but ...
I think it would be FAR better to learn point and shoot, shooting while running, .. in general shooting while moving rather than standing still.
I used to know this police chick who was into guns. She said that, although she and her PO friends trained at a range using the isosceles stance, she had heard of lots of stories of gunfights (never been in one herself) and had NEVER heard of ANY cop actually using the stance or any other.
Almost all gunfights (according to her) were surprises at either a traffic stop or upon entering a building and in every case the cop was running and ducking while firing, usually firing with one hand with the body torqued in some odd direction.
How often do you think you'll be in a gunfight where you have more than a few seconds to know what's going to happen? It hardly ever happens. Usually you won't know anyone is shooting until you see the gun or hear the pops.
The only recent shootout I remember where someone had time is the one a couple of years ago where the guy started shooting people in the parking lot of a church, then came inside the church and started shooting. The security guard (female I think) had time to get behind something and ready herself before he burst in, and if I recall she either killed him or wounded him with a shot or two. In that case range/accuracy training would be good.
One can certainly get a lot of contradictory advice here, can't one?
I've tended to suggest wherever appropriate that it doesn't help to shoot a large number of rounds in one session. It probably helps if competitive target shooting is what you're aiming for but not for self defense. But it also should be noted that the typical range, indoor or out, does not lend itself particularly well to realistic combat training. It is better than nothing, though, I suppose.
One of the things proponents of the .45 auto or other large calibers like to point out is that you don't need as many rounds because they are more effective. They even sometimes dismiss hollow points as trick ammunition. Then they go out and shoot 300 rounds two or three times a week. And practice fast reloads to boot. Confusing to the beginner, isn't it.
Concerning training to clear jams, I would suggest that is the wrong approach to the problem, especially is what you hear about gunfights is at all accurate. Better to have something reliable that will never "jam" or have stoppages. Judging from what I have read on this forum, a Makarov sounds like the most reliable handgun out there. Judging from my own experience, a Sig is the least. And that is even more contradictory advice.
And finally, I've never read anything or had any experience that suggested speed wasn't important.
I've tended to suggest wherever appropriate that it doesn't help to shoot a large number of rounds in one session. It probably helps if competitive target shooting is what you're aiming for but not for self defense. But it also should be noted that the typical range, indoor or out, does not lend itself particularly well to realistic combat training. It is better than nothing, though, I suppose.
One of the things proponents of the .45 auto or other large calibers like to point out is that you don't need as many rounds because they are more effective. They even sometimes dismiss hollow points as trick ammunition. Then they go out and shoot 300 rounds two or three times a week. And practice fast reloads to boot. Confusing to the beginner, isn't it.
Concerning training to clear jams, I would suggest that is the wrong approach to the problem, especially is what you hear about gunfights is at all accurate. Better to have something reliable that will never "jam" or have stoppages. Judging from what I have read on this forum, a Makarov sounds like the most reliable handgun out there. Judging from my own experience, a Sig is the least. And that is even more contradictory advice.
And finally, I've never read anything or had any experience that suggested speed wasn't important.
BlueTrain said:
I'm not trying to pick nits or anything, but there are no such things as guns that don't jam or have stoppages. There are no magic swords, and if you shoot enough rounds, anything will jam. If you name a brand, I can guarantee you that it can and will eventually jam.
Malfunction clearance drills should be part of your practice routine if you're a serious defensive shooter. The good gun schools (Thunder Ranch, Blackwater, Gunsite, etc) all teach malfunction clearance drills as a matter of doctrine.
Simple, there is no subsitute for good shooting fundamentals, regardless how you shoot, regardless whether you shoot targets, practical or self defence, There is no subsitute for good shooting fundamentals.
People are creatures of habit, You practice fundamentals, you train with fundamentals, you are subconsciencely going to revert to using those fundamentals in a high stress situation.
When I was a LE instructor, I pushed to have everyone I instructed to read and study Bill Jordon's NO SECOND PLACE WINNER. As a FTO (field training officer) I made the reading of that book mandentory before I signed off on any of my trainees.
There is no law anywhere, that says shooting fundamentals (that give you those little groups you talk about) can't be used in Tactal or SD situations.
Sure, maybe you can luck out, and point shoot from the hip at 3 feet, but what about three yards. One case in point, I had just ran some qualifications for my department. We had one officer, who shot a qualification score, did good actually, since most of the course was at relatively short range. Not 15 minuetes he was on a traffic stop when another car stopped behind his patrol car. The driver approached the patrol car as the officer was getting out. The bandit had a pistol and pointed it at the officer who drew and fired shooting the tail light on his own police car, that was from the drivers door. Turns out the bandit couldnt shoot either, this officer was lucky. The next night and every night for weeks, he was back in the range learning to shoot, It takes a spit second to bring the pistol up to eye sight.
As Bill Jordon taught, Keep your eyes on the threat, bring the gun up to your line of sight and fire, you loose vertually little time but your shooting improves IF YOU TRAIN, AND DRILL THIS PROCEEDURE.
I also ran a drill where as, as soon as the revolver clears the holster you start firing as you brought the gun up to your eye sight.
Regardless, how you shoot, compitition, tactical, or SD, there is no substute for the fundamentals.
You react the way you were train. During stress you will revert to your training subconsciencly.
Just try it. Keeping all the shooting fundamentals in mind, start our slow, draw and bring your pistol/revoler sights up to your eyes, while keeping the eyes on the target, and fire. Start at 7 feet, as you improve, speed up your shooting and move back. Soon, (with the right practice and using standard shooting fundamentals) you be able to keep your groups small, all the way back to 25 yards and further. Practice at 50 yards also. I realize thats a long range for SD shooting, but it will tighten your groups up at 7 yards.
Read Bill Jordon's book. The man knew what he was talking about. Don't sell these older gun people short.
Deaf Smith
New member
And I am a strong beliver in that.
With the exception of true hip shooting, the time it takes to bring the gun up to eye level .vs. chest level , or diaphragm level, is so small a fraction of a second it would have no relevance except on a Matt Dillon 'Gun Smoke' show.