Training Organization Called "Crucible"?
- Thread starter Kestrel
- Start date
Kelly McCann has been been making a big splash on the cable news shows as an expert on strategy and tactics, commenting on the current events in Afghanistan. I know little about McCann, but the quality of some of the other "experts" appearing on these shows has been uneven. McCann talks the talk and knows the jargon. He sounds knowledgeable and impressive. Based on a film clip of his training methods (see last paragraph below) he is a macho clown and an accident waiting to happen.
McCann did a video for Paladin Press under the name of Jim Grover. Haven't seen it. He also has a book published by Paladin Press that is a collection of columns called "Personal Security" he wrote for Guns & Ammo magazine, also under the name of Jim Grover. The book is pretty good advice on self protection and proper use of fire arms.
The book lists the contact as: Crucible Learning Center, PO Box 6000, Fredericksburg, VA 22406.
One of the news channels, CNN or Fox or whoever, did an on-site interview with McCann, including a brief look at the Crucible facilities. After seeing that film, I would never attend training there. To show off their sniper training, McCann and the reporter sat in camp chairs on a rifle range within about six feet of a human dummy type target. A hidden sniper took out the target with a head shot from something like 200 yards. I was shocked to see that level of irresponsibility from a supposed expert on firearms, safety and security. If you are stupid enough to sit on the wrong end of a live range, that's your business. To do so with a client or journalist who doesn't know any better is criminal.
McCann did a video for Paladin Press under the name of Jim Grover. Haven't seen it. He also has a book published by Paladin Press that is a collection of columns called "Personal Security" he wrote for Guns & Ammo magazine, also under the name of Jim Grover. The book is pretty good advice on self protection and proper use of fire arms.
The book lists the contact as: Crucible Learning Center, PO Box 6000, Fredericksburg, VA 22406.
One of the news channels, CNN or Fox or whoever, did an on-site interview with McCann, including a brief look at the Crucible facilities. After seeing that film, I would never attend training there. To show off their sniper training, McCann and the reporter sat in camp chairs on a rifle range within about six feet of a human dummy type target. A hidden sniper took out the target with a head shot from something like 200 yards. I was shocked to see that level of irresponsibility from a supposed expert on firearms, safety and security. If you are stupid enough to sit on the wrong end of a live range, that's your business. To do so with a client or journalist who doesn't know any better is criminal.
Boy, members of Britain's royal family and U.S. political figures who regularly sit in as "hostages" in the "killing houses" of the SAS and the FBI's HRT must be criminally insane.
Want to bet that the journalist was feigning "surprise" and had signed a stack of waivers before that scene was shot?
Want to bet that the journalist was feigning "surprise" and had signed a stack of waivers before that scene was shot?
Tamara--Are you saying that "Royals" play hostages in scenarios using live ammo? Never heard of that, but yes, I would call that insane. Murphy's Law applies, particularly with live rounds.
The reporter in the Crucible film clip knew what was coming, he just didn't know how dangerous it was. I don't care how good the shooter is, I consider sitting 6 feet away from a target with a sniper/instructor shooting live ammo from 200 yards to be irresponsible. I have never heard of a reputable or competent instructor pointing anything other than an orange gun in the direction of any person, and I would never trust anyone who did.
The reporter in the Crucible film clip knew what was coming, he just didn't know how dangerous it was. I don't care how good the shooter is, I consider sitting 6 feet away from a target with a sniper/instructor shooting live ammo from 200 yards to be irresponsible. I have never heard of a reputable or competent instructor pointing anything other than an orange gun in the direction of any person, and I would never trust anyone who did.
Yes, the Royals have sat in on live fire. The Picture History of the SAS, I think it is called, has several photos of the Charles and Di at a table when entry was made. Di looked none too happy, and Charles looked like he was having a ball.
As of the printing of that book, one troopie had been killed in that sort of training.
A colleague of mine was in a sniper school that offered a set up like the video mentioned. He said heck no to sitting near the bad guy.
As of the printing of that book, one troopie had been killed in that sort of training.
A colleague of mine was in a sniper school that offered a set up like the video mentioned. He said heck no to sitting near the bad guy.
One of the stunts the HRT pulls for VIP guests on a regular basis is to have them stand in a room interspersed with "terrorist" targets.
The lights are then turned out.
In the pitch darkness the visitors hear the phut-phut of silenced MP5's and the tinkling of spent brass and might feel something brush their clothing.
When the lights are turned back on, the "tangos" are riddled with bullet holes and the amazed guests all have post-it notes stuck to their backs stating "You have just been rescued by the HRT".
'Nother anecdote on the same lines:
George Bush Sr. sat as a hostage for one of the US CT teams (can't remember if it was Delta or HRT) when he was VP. His Secret Service guards freaked at the suggestion, but he insisted. They finally relented on the condition that he wear a vest and had two less-than-amused Secret Service agents sitting beside him.
The lights are then turned out.
In the pitch darkness the visitors hear the phut-phut of silenced MP5's and the tinkling of spent brass and might feel something brush their clothing.
When the lights are turned back on, the "tangos" are riddled with bullet holes and the amazed guests all have post-it notes stuck to their backs stating "You have just been rescued by the HRT".
'Nother anecdote on the same lines:
George Bush Sr. sat as a hostage for one of the US CT teams (can't remember if it was Delta or HRT) when he was VP. His Secret Service guards freaked at the suggestion, but he insisted. They finally relented on the condition that he wear a vest and had two less-than-amused Secret Service agents sitting beside him.
Jake 98c/11b
New member
While it may bother some of the more timid members of TFL I have no problem with this sort of live fire training (live no shoots among bad guy targets) if it is conducted by people I trust. I think I might have seen some of the clip mentioned, with the sniper at 200m, we keep the news channel running in the office at work. Wasn't the target about 6 feet over the heads of the news crew? Wasn't the 'Expert' (Mcann I suppose) closer to the target than the 'guests'? If a precision shooter with a decent rifle can't shoot within 36 MOA of his target at 200 how can you call him a precision marksman?
This kind of training is done regularly by several high speed teams around the world. It is done for several reasons, first and foremost to develoup a trust among the members of a team. When others are brought in, like the royal family, it is done to show the competence of the protection/rescue team to those they are to defend. It will also help you weed out those few who may get that far in training who are not able to deal with the idea of live targets and those who, when it comes down to it, are just too timid to do the job.
I am not advocating the practice for everyone, far from it. I don't think this is something to be taken lightly, it is the most extreme form of live fire training imaginable but it does have it's place.
This kind of training is done regularly by several high speed teams around the world. It is done for several reasons, first and foremost to develoup a trust among the members of a team. When others are brought in, like the royal family, it is done to show the competence of the protection/rescue team to those they are to defend. It will also help you weed out those few who may get that far in training who are not able to deal with the idea of live targets and those who, when it comes down to it, are just too timid to do the job.
I am not advocating the practice for everyone, far from it. I don't think this is something to be taken lightly, it is the most extreme form of live fire training imaginable but it does have it's place.
You should see the Portuguese Grupo De Operacoes Especiais in live fire training! Two rows of guys facing each other; each row is alternating operator-target-operator. You fire at the target directly across from you, some 25m away; while standing about a foot-and-a-half on either side of that target are two of your buddies blazing away at targets a foot-and-a-half on either side of you. I guess you really have to trust your teammates in that unit!
From my understanding Kelly Mcann aka "Jim Grover" of Guns and Ammo fame is very credible. I think he has been around the block more than just a couple times.
As for life fire exercises I think all high speed low drag guys do them on occasion. I would be willing to sit in on some of them depending on who did them. I know in the US there are at least 3 teams that I would be comfortable sitting in on Delta, Devgroup Team 6, and the FBI HRT. Same goes for inactive operators as was probably the case in the video clip you saw. Mcann is no idiot if he was sitting down range from his sniper with a reporter you can be damn sure that the sniper was as qualified as it gets for that exercise.
As for life fire exercises I think all high speed low drag guys do them on occasion. I would be willing to sit in on some of them depending on who did them. I know in the US there are at least 3 teams that I would be comfortable sitting in on Delta, Devgroup Team 6, and the FBI HRT. Same goes for inactive operators as was probably the case in the video clip you saw. Mcann is no idiot if he was sitting down range from his sniper with a reporter you can be damn sure that the sniper was as qualified as it gets for that exercise.
Over the Christmas holiday my brother-in-law surprised us by showing up at the cabin that we always rent for a family get together. He is a secret service agent who applied for and received presidential duty when bush became president. In fact, I have a sweet little picture of him next to Bush on the campaign trail, before he was elected president. I won't post it, because I really don't know if he will get in trouble or anything strange like that.
He told a couple of us about the live fire training that they go through. He said that there are certain SS members that have to stand down range while EXPERTLY trained people shoot various weapons all around them. He said that part of the reason was to be able to identify type of weapon being fired, direction of shooter, etc.
I have a feeling that some of it also has to do with some of the other comments that people made on this thread, including the weeding out of undesirable SS agents and as a trust thing. I must confess that I sat open mouthed as he told us this.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised however. The SS trains there agents in more ways than I could ever imagine. My brother in law is now a fully trained EMT, can do the cool 180 whip around car trick with the presidential limo, has driven a car on 2 wheels, is versed in too many weapons to mention, etc. etc.
I can't imagine having bullets whiz by my head, but I guess that is a chance even you and I take everytime we head out the front door. I've just decided to return the favor on anyone wishing me harm.
Out
He told a couple of us about the live fire training that they go through. He said that there are certain SS members that have to stand down range while EXPERTLY trained people shoot various weapons all around them. He said that part of the reason was to be able to identify type of weapon being fired, direction of shooter, etc.
I have a feeling that some of it also has to do with some of the other comments that people made on this thread, including the weeding out of undesirable SS agents and as a trust thing. I must confess that I sat open mouthed as he told us this.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised however. The SS trains there agents in more ways than I could ever imagine. My brother in law is now a fully trained EMT, can do the cool 180 whip around car trick with the presidential limo, has driven a car on 2 wheels, is versed in too many weapons to mention, etc. etc.
I can't imagine having bullets whiz by my head, but I guess that is a chance even you and I take everytime we head out the front door. I've just decided to return the favor on anyone wishing me harm.
Out
FOX News did a three part series on McCann and Crucible, of which the sniper scenario was featured in one. I saw three different ones at any rate. Maybe there's another?
I particularly enjoyed the drills involving multiple adversaries beginning with the one behind the shooter and one involving a moving vehicle, two shooters, cover, and multiple adversaries.
Anyway, everything looked top notch and competently run. McCann seemed to know his business judging from the demonstrations and explainations.
I'd attend.
As for live people on a (expert) live range. I imagine that it isn't for everyone. If not, don't volunteer.
I particularly enjoyed the drills involving multiple adversaries beginning with the one behind the shooter and one involving a moving vehicle, two shooters, cover, and multiple adversaries.
Anyway, everything looked top notch and competently run. McCann seemed to know his business judging from the demonstrations and explainations.
I'd attend.
As for live people on a (expert) live range. I imagine that it isn't for everyone. If not, don't volunteer.
Live fire excercises involving VIPs are also meant for the VIPs to become familiar with weapons fire during extreme moments and to train them how to respond properly. VIPs have pre-arranged methods of action that have been worked out with HRT personnel.
This keeps them from jumping up and running into gunfire if there ever is a rescue situation.
This keeps them from jumping up and running into gunfire if there ever is a rescue situation.
Live fire exercises which utilize targets arrayed in very near proximity to personnel are called 'confidence drills'. They are closely monitored and highly choreographed affairs utilized by many of the best units tasked with hostage rescue missions. They are not undertaken lightly or on the spur of the moment but only after quite a long period of training work ups. My team used this type of drill and I took part in them as both 'victim' and 'rescuer'. This was before the advent of Simunitions technology which has perhaps supplanted the need for such high risk training.
To answer your first question, yes. Lately, there aren't many Fox News viewers who haven't heard of them.
Second question, mccannk@cruciblesecurity.com
As to the questions posed regarding their credibility, Kelly is the real deal...and his organization is top notch.
Second question, mccannk@cruciblesecurity.com
As to the questions posed regarding their credibility, Kelly is the real deal...and his organization is top notch.
In one of Andy McNabb's books on the SAS he mentioned that you probably wondered why Pricess Di changed her hairstyle at one point. He said that her hair was set on fire from a flash/bang grenade during one of these exercises. He pointed out that this training was conducted regularly and it was not just for the SAS, they could have used paper targets for that. The point was so that the royals knew the drill and didn't do anything unexpected if they ever had to actually put this drill into practice.
Erick, there's a thread fer ya...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=74536&highlight=Google+AND+anti
I really wish it weren't so.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=74536&highlight=Google+AND+anti
I really wish it weren't so.