Tour of the SWAT team's armory. Wow!

The actual use of force in police-public contact situations is a very low base rate phenomenon - generally less than 3%. In this context, use of force includes everything from hand & foot strikes up the continuum to lethal force. Lethal force, by itself, occurs in substantially less than 1% of P-P encounters.

Now to be sure, police officers generally have a very low threshold of tolerance for "contempt of cop" and are wont to see anything less than immediate compliance as resistance. Push gets push back and the officer ups the level of force in the encounter - say from a simple request to a command directive. Thereafter, the push by the officer will match and exceed that of the unruly citizen.

It is problematic with returning veterans, especially those who were LE before, during, and after deployment. I personally think those officers have a tougher time re-assimilating into civilian life than vets who return to joe-jobs. The problem is inherent in the differing rules of engagement. It takes an LE officer longer to spool up in-country and transition from a gradually escalating use of force where lethal action is to be avoided until it can't be avoided. In combat, this can be fatal. Once fully spooled up, it takes a similarly long time to decompress once back in the world.

So, I don't think it is so much the paramilitary nature of LE, its always been that way. However, the us-vs-them mentality can be very problematic. For many officers it is simply safer and easier to assume every citizen is a booger eater until proven otherwise.

In large, professional agencies, the tactical team members are typically among the most mature and professional. I do worry about the tac guys from Awshucks County SO, who got their toys on a Homeland Sec grant and decided not to waste money on training.

On balance, I'm okay with LE having automatic weapons. Crew served is a bit much assuming it was not an item originally held in evidence. The APCs make perfect sense - I've hidden in one or two myself whilst trying to convince some yahoo not to off his whole family and then himself.

I do, however, agree with Aarond on this point. LE works for the citizenry AND derives its very authority to use force from that citizenry.
 
If I want to spend my money and buy a beltfed, that's up to me and my household.

When we're talking about agencies using our taxpayer dollars to acquire these machines that will not be needed unless something similar to Mumbai happens in Bumfudge, wherever; as a tax payer, I take offense to that wasteful spending.
 
Interesting that a lot of the same folks who are okay with us being able to own submachine guns/full-autos as citizens (as I am) aren't okay with the police having heavy stuff too.

My reasoning is twofold:

1) I'm of the opinion that if I can't own it, they don't get to own it. We're supposed to be a government of, by, and for the people, not a government that is over, above, and superior to the people.

2) I also have to ask what they plan to do with the things. What, exactly, is the role of the local police force? In order to pull it off, are they going to need the services of a crew served belt fed machine gun? Those are used for either fixed defense against an assaulting force or heavy suppression of an area while another force maneuvers against the enemies in that area. Short of a Mumbai-style attack (something highly unlikely), there's just no need for the police to have such things. In order to be effective with it they'll need to train with it, and if they're training for extremely highly unlikely events such as that (something that has yet to occur in the United States by regular criminals), they're NOT training for other events that they'll be far more likely to face. Therefore, with those weapons they're a distraction at best and a danger to themselves and the populace they're supposed to protect at worst. Submachine guns? Fine- even suppressed ones. Select fire capable infantry style small arms? OK, just know how to employ the things. Belt feds? That's probably a bit too much... better to hand that off to the National Guard- if it becomes necessary, they're going to be better equipped to handle it. The cops might as well have RPGs if they're going to use belt feds.

If I would have a belt-fed, my purpose would basically be amusement. The police have other, more pressing, needs to serve than just giggles while turning ammunition into spent brass and noise. If they're going to burn through ammo paid for by taxpayers, they need to do so to some useful purpose... amusement just doesn't rate for that.
 
Given that the OP's location is given as sunny Florida it could very well be Miami PD SWAT that he's referring to. Given that more drugs flow through that place than Rite-Aid, they probably feel the need for plenty of firepower. After all, overkill is underrated;).

Anyway, sounds like they have a cool assortment of weaponry.
 
That's just sickening to me. I bet not a one of those officers responsible for said weaponry has the requisite NFA paperwork or tax stamps.

I am pro-law enforcement and I am also pro-law enforcement having the correct tools for the job.

But an M-60E3? Why?
 
Given that the OP's location is given as sunny Florida it could very well be Miami PD SWAT that he's referring to. Given that more drugs flow through that place than Rite-Aid, they probably feel the need for plenty of firepower.

If they are that necessary then the citizenry should have the same level of access to the same level of firepower.

Another example of the mileage the .gov is getting out of the "War on Drugs".
 
Montgomery County / Dayton Ohio SWAT now has an MRAV. Supposedly $200,000. I guess the medical bills were more last time they hit an IED though... Oh wait, that never happened.

Are you sure those full-autos were pre-86? Usually they are DOD transfers. A Sherriff who is in a club with me just requested some. DOD gave him one for each full time officer. No training or anything like that, just mailed him ten full auto rifles at no cost. He has had them out to shoot a few times. My local PD and Sheriff office also have them.
 
If they are that necessary then the citizenry should have the same level of access to the same level of firepower

Agree. Florida law requires only that you meet federal law in owning machine guns, so feel free to pay your $200 tax stamp and pick up a Ma Deuce.
 
Watch the stupid TV show "Miami SWAT" and tell me you believe those guys are really qualified or justified to have full auto weapons.
 
I also have to ask what they plan to do with the things.

My guess is absolutely nothing. Because did anyone else notice that he didn't mention seeing large quantities of .50, 7.62 or even 5.56?

250,000 rounds of .40 FMJ, 50,000 of framgible for the steel range, and 60,000 of Gold Dot. Plus cases of 9mm 147gr and stacks of 12ga. Arwen gun ammo, gas, pepperballs, etc.

.40, 9mm and 12ga. Just what you would expect to find in any good PD armory anywhere in the U.S.
 
Watch the stupid TV show "Miami SWAT" and tell me you believe those guys are really qualified or justified to have full auto weapons.

Watching a dramatized reality TV show that puts all the most dramatic parts in and edits the rest is probably not the best way to make an informed decision, no disrespect intended.
 
Better question…why NOT?

If the m60 and tanks are seized items, why not let them sit in the armory and get taken out for fun demos every so often?


Watch the stupid TV show "Miami SWAT" and tell me you believe those guys are really qualified or justified to have full auto weapons.

Qualified? Some better than others. All better than most.

Justified? Definitely.


Using TV show DRAMA as a baseline for an opinion….fail.
 
Yuck at the militarization of police forces.

They should have what they need to do their jobs, protect themselves but...

M113 APC and M2?

I'm cool with an AR15 in the trunk, but at some point...what are we doing here?
 
I have stated many times on the gun forums that I don't agree with the direction the local police departments are taking on their appearance and equipment. My department has attempted to place procurement of additional fully automatic weapons in their annual budget each and every year. We presently have three MP5's, two sniper rifles and six M16's. The PD's equipment budget line suggests that they are attempting to outfit several SEAL teams. Needless to say because of budget restraints (:D) the procurements are denied. What does a local department need machine guns, cases of Flash Bang granades and Tear Gas for. If the department were ever to have a need, it is time to call in the Sheriff and/or the state police. Food for thought, what if the two LEO's at the Empire State Building shooting would have responded with full auto weapons?......
 
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