Toomey-Manchin Amendment

Manchin was on Fox news and tried to assure us this bill no way affects lawful gun use. He then directs us to his site for us to read the bill.

I did, the part that jumps out at me (page 21-24), all transactions much go through a license dealer.

It does not specify temporarily or permanent, just says transfer.

How about "loaning" a firearm to someone?????

For example, I conduct a ladies Safety and Firearms class every week. I recommend the ladies don't buy a gun until they've tried several so myself and others in the gun club bring a variety of firearms for these ladies and see what fits them.

So, as I read the bill, I have to go through a FFL to loan a firearm (transfer) to one of my students.

I live near a small town, the local FFL charges $35 per transfer, which is fair considering the paperwork involved.

So as I read the bill, I have to pay $35 to transfer the gun to the student, who has to pay $35 go get the gun from the FFL, then go through the same thing to get my gun back. That's $140 per student per week.

Same thing happens if I load a rifle to my neighbor to go hunting.

Now I'm no lawyer, I'm basing this on my reading of the law, I may be wrong but I'll continue urging my Senators to vote against this bill.
 
Fine print but it appears ALL private party transfers

Paragraph (1) covers BOTH gun shows and internet / publications etc. Paragraph (2) covers the transfers NOT covered in paragraph (1).

Here is all of paragraph (1)

"(t)(1) Beginning on the date that is 180 days after the date of enactment of this subsection and except as provided in paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any person other than a licensed dealer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed importer to complete the transfer of a firearm to any other person who is not licensed under this chapter, if such transfer occurs-
"(A) at a gun show or event, on the curtilage thereof; or
"(B) pursuant to an advertisement, posting, display or other listing on the Internet or in a publication by the transferor of his intent to transfer, or the transferee of his intent to acquire, the firearm.


As you read above - paragraph (1) bars unlicensed parties from selling at shows / events / internet and publication - paragraph (2) deals in general with ALL transfers - not just guns shows and online / publication. The way that it is written - this paragraph (2) appears to apply to all transfers. Here is paragraph (2):

"(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply if-
"(A) the transfer is made after a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer has first taken possession of the firearm for the purpose of complying with subsection (s), and upon taking possession of the firearm, the licensee-
"(i) complies with all requirements of this chapter as if the licensee were transferring the firearm from the licensee's business inventory to the unlicensed transferee, except that when processing a transfer under this chapter the licensee may accept in lieu of conducting a background check a valid permit issued within the previous 5 years by a State, or a political subdivision of a State, that allows the transferee to possess, acquire, or carry a firearm, if the law of the State, or political subdivision of a State, that issued the permit requires that such permit is issued only after an authorized government official has verified that the information available to such official does not indicate that possession of a firearm by the unlicensed transferee would be in violation of Federal, State, or local law;
"(B) the transfer is made between an unlicensed transferor and an unlicensed transferee residing in the same State, which takes place in such State, if-
"(i) the Attorney General certifies that State in which the transfer takes place has in effect requirements under law that are generally equivalent to the requirements of this section; and
"(ii) the transfer was conducted in compliance with the laws of the State;
"(C) the transfer is made between spouses, between parents or spouses of parents and their children or spouses of their children, between siblings or spouses of siblings, or between grandparents or spouses of grandparents and their grandchildren or spouses of their grandchildren, or between aunts or uncles or their spouses and their nieces or nephews or their spouses, or between first cousins, if the transferor does not know or have reasonable cause to believe that the transferee is prohibited from receiving or possessing a firearm under Federal, State, or local law; or
"(D) the Attorney General has approved the transfer under section

--

Paragraph (2) does not specifically deal with gun shows or internet - rather it deals with all - ALL transfers. Would love to be wrong about this - hope I am.
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Randy
 
All private transfers are regulated.

I'm not reading it as you are:

"Paragraph 1 describes where the requirement for a background check applies (Gun shows and internet/publication)

Paragraph 2 describes when sales that are online/publication or at a gun show are exempt from background checks.

The bill doesn't attempt to regulate any other private transfers
."

I read it as:

Paragraph 1 makes it unlawful for unlicensed dealers to transfer guns at gun shows, online etc.

Paragraph 2 talks about all transfers NOT about transfers in paragraph 1. Paragraph 2 says nothing about gun shows - zero - it applies to all transfers.
 
"(t)(1) Beginning on the date that is 180 days after the date of enactment of this subsection and except as provided in paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any person other than a licensed dealer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed importer to complete the transfer of a firearm to any other person who is not licensed under this chapter, if such transfer occurs-

Paragraph 2 does not cover all other sales. It describes when Paragraph 1 does not apply. Other transfers are covered by 18 USC 922(s) (which is currently 18 USC 922(t)).
 
kraigwy said:
How about "loaning" a firearm to someone?????

"926A. Interstate transportation of firearms or ammunition.".
SEC. 129. RULE OF CONSTRUCTION.
Nothing in this subtitle, or an amendment made by this subtitle, shall be construed-
(1) to extend background check requirements to transfers other than those made at gun shows or on the curtilage thereof, or pursuant to an advertisement, posting, display, or other listing on the Internet or in a publication by the transferor of the intent of the transferor to transfer, or the transferee of the intent of the transferee to acquire, the firearm; or

(2) to extend background check requirements to temporary transfers for purposes including lawful hunting or sporting or to temporary possession of a firearm for purposes of examination or evaluation by a prospective transferee.

Interesting issue - what if I loan a firearm to someone who is having prowler problems? The prohibition is against "purposes including lawful hunting or sporting."
 
18 USC 922(s) Transfers

You said:

"Paragraph 2 does not cover all other sales. It describes when Paragraph 1 does not apply. Other transfers are covered by 18 USC 922(s) (which is currently 18 USC 922(t))."

I hope that you are correct - but does this bill specifically state that or is it implied or to be inferred or is that existing case law or???
 
Good

I am glad you could clear that up - now - what does "publication" mean and why didn't they include a definition - as is common in other laws?
 
Follow up...

In my earlier post, when I wrote...
carguychris said:
I believe that this legislation could essentially result in the end of all lawful non-family FTF sales...
...I probably should have worded this a little differently, perhaps as largely unregulated lawful non-family FTF sales.

One particular provision in the "Exemptions" caught my attention...
(B) the transfer is made between an unlicensed transferor and an unlicensed transferee residing in the same State, which takes place in such State, if-
(i) the Attorney General certifies that State in which the transfer takes place has in effect requirements under law that are generally equivalent to the requirements of this section; and
(ii) the transfer was conducted in compliance with the laws of the State;...
Here's my interpretation: if the state has a CHL system or a firearms purchase permit system in place, AND this system has standards equal to or in excess of a NICS check, AND a NICS-disqualifying event would also result in the revocation of this permit or license, then the US Attorney General can certify that this license or permit is essentially equal to a NICS check. Viola- it's legal to conduct a FTF sale to an in-state buyer who has the permit or license.

Thoughts?

If this is the case, then the only missing piece in most states with CHLs is some sort of in-state process for verifying whether the permit or license is valid.
 
carguychris said:
Here's my interpretation: if the state has a CHL system or a firearms purchase permit system in place, AND this system has standards equal to or in excess of a NICS check, AND a NICS-disqualifying event would also result in the revocation of this permit or license, then the US Attorney General can certify that this license or permit is essentially equal to a NICS check. Viola- it's legal to conduct a FTF sale to an in-state buyer who has the permit or license.

Thoughts?

Partially correct. The core of the Manchin-Toomey amendment is the requirement for gun show and internet-related transfers to go through a dealer. Going through a dealer already requires a 4473 and a NICS check. Existing law already allows some permits to act as substitutes for a NICS check.

The section cited refers to state requirements equivalent to the federal requirements of going through a dealer, with a 4473, and with a NICS check or equivalent.

You did not think that Schumer was really going to give up on getting some type of records of as many private sales as possible, did you?
 
Bartholomew Roberts said:
Interesting issue - what if I loan a firearm to someone who is having prowler problems? The prohibition is against "purposes including lawful hunting or sporting."

Ouch...under current PA law I can loan a firearm to a friend:
(a) Offense defined.--No person shall make any loan secured by mortgage, deposit or pledge of a firearm, nor, except as provided in subsection (b), shall any person lend or give a firearm to another or otherwise deliver a firearm contrary to the provisions of this subchapter.
(b) Exception.—
(1) Subsection (a) shall not apply if any of the following apply:
(i) The person who receives the firearm is licensed to carry a firearm under section 6109 (relating to licenses).

Am I right in that this law (if passed) would supercede our state law and I can no longer loan a firearm even if he has a license to carry?
 
cgc, the more we dig into this, the more confusing and self-contradictory it becomes. Whenever a law becomes this difficult to follow, it lends itself to selective prosecution.
 
I spent a little time this morning, going through 18 usc 922 and making the changes that the T-M amendment proposes. I know that it's much easier for me to see what an amendment will do if I actually make the changes that are proposed. I did not go through the other sections to make the changes, as my focus right now is on what sorts of transfers are covered.

This is only a draft, and if I've made any mistakes, just let me know.
 
I still do not see the change. When you buy on the Internet you firearm is shipped to an FFL who does a background check when you pick up.

When you buy stagy show from an FFL they do a background check.

All this does is make private sales illegal at a gunshow.
 
Nice work, Spatts...

This gem jumped out at me:

From the 922(b)(3)(A): (bold indicates new wording)
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed
dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver--

(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located located or temporarily located, except that this paragraph

(A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any firearm (was rifle or shotgun) to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located or temporarily located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in the State in which the transfer is conducted and the State of residence of the transferee

Am I nuts, or did they just restore the ability to purchase a handgun outside the state in which you reside???
 
I still do not see the change. When you buy on the Internet you firearm is shipped to an FFL who does a background check when you pick up.

You're thinking of internet sales only as orders that need to be shipped, in which case you'd be correct.

The new law would include, for example, a firearm is that is sold through an online classified ad or auction within the same state and a face-to-face pickup could occur.
 
First pass through the amendment

I finally got throgh my first run through the amendment, and here are my impressions:
(u)It shall be unlawful for a person to steal or unlawfully take or carry away from the person or the premises of a person who is licensed to engage in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms, any firearm in the licensee's business inventory that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
Ok. This is from the pre-amendment § 922. I’ve never really looked at it before, but it’s rather a silly subsection:
1) It shall be unlawful for a person to unlawfully take?!? I’m pretty sure it’s always unlawful to do something unlawful. Kinda goes with the territory.
2) Was there some reason to think that theft was somehow legal when it came to firearms?

Now, on to the amendment issues:
(t)(1) Beginning on the date that is 180 days after the date of enactment of this subsection and except as provided in paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any person other than a licensed dealer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed importer to complete the transfer of a firearm to any other person who is not licensed under this chapter, if such transfer occurs-
"(A) at a gun show or event, on the curtilage thereof; or
"(B) pursuant to an advertisement, posting, display or other listing on the Internet or in a publication by the transferor of his intent to transfer, or the transferee of his intent to acquire, the firearm.
I think we’ve pretty well established what this would do to private sales at gun shows, or on the curtilage thereof. The only real question is what this does to all of the other non-gun-show, non-curtilage-thereof private transfers. I can see two readings of subsection (B), above. The first is that background checks would be required in connection with any “advertisement, posting, display or other listing,” in which the internet was involved. The second, which is (IMHO) less plausible, but nonetheless the one I (suspiciously) expect BATFE to take is more along the lines of “pursuant to an advertisement,” (may be unconnected with internet), posting (may also be unconnected), “display or other listing on the internet.” IOW, if it’s on da webz, it gets a background check. If it’s advertised, it gets a BC. If it’s displayed, it gets a BC. That interpretation covers pretty much all private transfers except:
Bob: Nice rifle, Frank.
Frank: Thanks, Bob. I was thinking of selling it.
Bob: Take my money NOW!​

Now on to Paragraph 2:
"(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply if-
"(A) the transfer is made after a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer has first taken possession of the firearm for the purpose of complying with subsection (s), and upon taking possession of the firearm, the licensee-
"(i) complies with all requirements of this chapter as if the licensee were transferring the firearm from the licensee's business inventory to the unlicensed transferee, except that when processing a transfer under this chapter the licensee may accept in lieu of conducting a background check a valid permit issued within the previous 5 years by a State, or a political subdivision of a State, that allows the transferee to possess, acquire, or carry a firearm, if the law of the State, or political subdivision of a State, that issued the permit requires that such permit is issued only after an authorized government official has verified that the information available to such official does not indicate that possession of a firearm by the unlicensed transferee would be in violation of Federal, State, or local law;
Let’s stop here for just a moment. OK. So Paragraph 1 requires BCs. Paragraph 2 does not apply, if you go through an FFL . . . which requires a BC, in most cases. So it’s kind of like saying that Paragraph 1 doesn’t apply, if you follow the steps outlined in Paragraph 1. As others have noted, there’s also a limit of 5 years on the CCL exemption.


"(B) the transfer is made between an unlicensed transferor and an unlicensed transferee residing in the same State, which takes place in such State, if-
"(i) the Attorney General certifies that State in which the transfer takes place has in effect requirements under law that are generally equivalent to the requirements of this section; and
Ok. This bugs me. That “and” right there makes me wonder if (B) is supposed to be read in conjunction with subsection (A) above. If so, that would mean that intrastate FTF transfers would be covered and the AG would have to certify that the State in which the transfer takes place has in effect laws that are “generally equivalent” to the requirements of this section.
Hmmm . . . “generally equivalent.” I really, really don’t like the use of that phrase here. First of all, what does that mean? Identical? Extremely close to identical? What are the relevant features and requirements of a law, necessary to such a degree and in such a way as to make a State law “generally equivalent?” Second, what happens if the AG does not so certify? Is there any incentive for him to do so? If not, why would he certify any State as having such laws? Third, why should he have to certify a State like that? Due to the Supremacy Clause, we already have to abide by State and Federal law. This looks like an end run that allows the fed gov’t to indirectly regulate intrastate commerce, if’n you ask me.
"(ii) the transfer was conducted in compliance with the laws of the State;
"(C) the transfer is made between spouses, between parents or spouses of parents and their children or spouses of their children, between siblings or spouses of siblings, or between grandparents or spouses of grandparents and their grandchildren or spouses of their grandchildren, or between aunts or uncles or their spouses and their nieces or nephews or their spouses, or between first cousins, if the transferor does not know or have reasonable cause to believe that the transferee is prohibited from receiving or possessing a firearm under Federal, State, or local law; or
OK. Here are the family transfers. I do think that tranfers within the family should be exempted from BCs. I mean, you still can’t give your brother a gun if he’s got a felony conviction, and it seems reasonable that you oughta know if your brother’s a felon.

Also note that we might talk about “sales,” but the law actually refers to “transfers.” While I might personally find this a little disconcerting, in all honesty, I don’t see any changes to the definition of “transfer,” in this amendment. However, I am bothered by this:
SEC. 129. RULE OF CONSTRUCTION.
Nothing in this subtitle, or an amendment made by this subtitle, shall be construed-
(1) to extend background check requirements to transfers other than those made at gun shows or on the curtilage thereof, or pursuant to an advertisement, posting, display, or other listing on the Internet or in a publication by the transferor of the intent of the transferor to transfer, or the transferee of the intent of the transferee to acquire, the firearm; or
(2) to extend background check requirements to temporary transfers for purposes including lawful hunting or sporting or to temporary possession of a firearm for purposes of examination or evaluation by a prospective transferee.
Someone (kraigwy?) noted earlier that this can be interpreted to mean that I can loan my buddy something for hunting, but not for “stalker duty,” unless it involves a BC.
 
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