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Took my carry class re-new last Saturday... funny
- Thread starter Magnum Wheel Man
- Start date
Magnum Wheel Man
New member
thanks for the suggestion SARGE... I thought about that as well... I haven't tried yet, but expect the case to be too big, as the bullets are .359 - .060 the cases are bigger around than the 38 special / 357 mag...
All those inept, inexperienced, and untrained folks who passed the test are now licensed to carry a loaded firearm on their person.
That would be me!! But I never took a test.
Ain't freedom great?
I could do without the licensed part though.
Stevie-Ray
New member
Now that's one I've always been interested in. Passed on one recently for 400 bucks, and I've since been regretting it.hmm... not sure how it'd "really" fair against my 32 H&R magnum J frame...
aarondhgraham
New member
Wow!,,, What a diatribe,,,,,
Actually it did seem like a thread "about good taste or enjoying the use of classic firearms", until you took it upon yourself to chastise a grown man about something he is perfectly capable of making a decision about.
Aarond
As clarification, no this thread isn't about good taste or enjoying the use of classic firearms, it's about betting a life on an inferior defensive tool.
Actually it did seem like a thread "about good taste or enjoying the use of classic firearms", until you took it upon yourself to chastise a grown man about something he is perfectly capable of making a decision about.
Aarond
Wow!,,, What a diatribe,,,,,
Quote:
Actually it did seem like a thread "about good taste or enjoying the use of classic firearms", until you took it upon yourself to chastise a grown man about something he is perfectly capable of making a decision about.As clarification, no this thread isn't about good taste or enjoying the use of classic firearms, it's about betting a life on an inferior defensive tool.
Aarond
Good post Aarond, could not have said it better myself. Technophobes may be technically correct but the old guns did the job 100 years ago and they still work. Don't ask me to stand in front and volunteer to be a target and I bet no technophobe will volunteer either. I'd rather have a good shot with an old supposedly underpowered gun then a bad shot relying on large capacity magazines and prayer.
Magnum Wheel Man
New member
STEVIE... I bought my exposed hammer air weight J frame as my 1st specific carry gun... it holds 6 rounds instead of the normal 38's 5 rounds ( sorry not good at remebering S&W's model numbers ) it's a very easy shooting combination, light weight & small & holds 6 rounds
I pointed out a poor choice for the context.
Note the parachute example.
Every day opinions are expressed about choices, actions, and preferences on gun forums.
Grown men make bad decisions every day, and this is one that could result in a needless death. As I said, he's made his choice, I'm concerned with others who may think it sounds like a good idea.
It appears to me that some who like the older guns in question are more enamoured of the nostalgia & "romance" than conversant with the reality of a deadly encounter.
If those are the two criteria you use to select your defensive tool, it's your life.
Having seen the results of many fatal shootings, and investigating the circumstances that surrounded them, I'll repeat that this is not a matter of "enjoying the use of classic firearms", it's a matter of keeping yourself alive in an often dynamic situation. Very far removed from "enjoying" a leisurely day in popping paper at the range. Or even stressing relatively soft cylinder notches, hands, and bolts in rapid-firing for CAS.
Your defensive shield is not a matter of "enjoyment", it's a matter of selecting the most efficient combination of gun, caliber, and shooter interface that you can reasonably pull off.
Believe me, when 200 pounds of ****** off drunk with a club, a carfull of teenage attitude with tire irons, a deranged man with a hatchet, or a road rage incident with a pistol, gets right here & now in your face and you are about to die, you will not be "enjoying" a hundred-year-old gun because you find it cute.
You will want, when it comes right down to it, the most effective threat-stopper on the planet, not one of the least.
You will not be thinking "My, how fun it is to be using a slow-firing century-old smallbore gun with a lesser grade of steel and handloads that are stressing it beyond its original design parameters to stop this gentleman from detaching my head from my body with his shotgun."
I've had a guy come at me with a machete, I did not find myself thinking "Boy, sure wish I had an antique pocket pistol with me right now!"
I've had to disarm an out-of-control man loading his shotgun with intent to kill; trust me- the entire time I was running up to him with my handgun pointed right at his head while he continued to ignore orders to drop the gun, I was most certainly not thinking "It would just be SO COOL right now if I had something less effective ballistically with harder-to-see-at-night-sights to point at him."
Been on a disturbance call where the guy who'd threatened neighbors with a hatchet answered the door with it in his hand and struck at the closest officer with it, thereby getting himself shot with a duty Glock, resulting in no chance of ever being a problem again.
At no point did any of us standing right there wish we were "enjoying" a classic antique firearm.
I'm unable to get the basic idea across of being so close to death that you can literally smell it, you can hear it, you may be feeling it, you might be wrestling with it, you may only have one hand available to shoot with, and you may already be injured yourself.
This is not the range, this is not "enjoying" anything whatever. It is not sitting in the recliner in the living room admiring the lines of a long-obsolete collector piece. It's a true "near death experience" that may very easily turn into something more than "near", and I could be more graphic in trying to get the point across, but it's a family show here.
I've seen enough of the results of fatal encounters to address this issue, and I won't apologize for doing so.
Those who may be thinking of doing something similar at least have access now to enough information to make an informed decision, rather than strictly an emotional one.
Denis
Add Comment: Using the "It worked 100 years ago..." argument makes every bit as much sense as advocating the use of a sword. "Hey, swords worked 200 years ago, what's wrong with carrying one today?"
Note the parachute example.
Every day opinions are expressed about choices, actions, and preferences on gun forums.
Grown men make bad decisions every day, and this is one that could result in a needless death. As I said, he's made his choice, I'm concerned with others who may think it sounds like a good idea.
It appears to me that some who like the older guns in question are more enamoured of the nostalgia & "romance" than conversant with the reality of a deadly encounter.
If those are the two criteria you use to select your defensive tool, it's your life.
Having seen the results of many fatal shootings, and investigating the circumstances that surrounded them, I'll repeat that this is not a matter of "enjoying the use of classic firearms", it's a matter of keeping yourself alive in an often dynamic situation. Very far removed from "enjoying" a leisurely day in popping paper at the range. Or even stressing relatively soft cylinder notches, hands, and bolts in rapid-firing for CAS.
Your defensive shield is not a matter of "enjoyment", it's a matter of selecting the most efficient combination of gun, caliber, and shooter interface that you can reasonably pull off.
Believe me, when 200 pounds of ****** off drunk with a club, a carfull of teenage attitude with tire irons, a deranged man with a hatchet, or a road rage incident with a pistol, gets right here & now in your face and you are about to die, you will not be "enjoying" a hundred-year-old gun because you find it cute.
You will want, when it comes right down to it, the most effective threat-stopper on the planet, not one of the least.
You will not be thinking "My, how fun it is to be using a slow-firing century-old smallbore gun with a lesser grade of steel and handloads that are stressing it beyond its original design parameters to stop this gentleman from detaching my head from my body with his shotgun."
I've had a guy come at me with a machete, I did not find myself thinking "Boy, sure wish I had an antique pocket pistol with me right now!"
I've had to disarm an out-of-control man loading his shotgun with intent to kill; trust me- the entire time I was running up to him with my handgun pointed right at his head while he continued to ignore orders to drop the gun, I was most certainly not thinking "It would just be SO COOL right now if I had something less effective ballistically with harder-to-see-at-night-sights to point at him."
Been on a disturbance call where the guy who'd threatened neighbors with a hatchet answered the door with it in his hand and struck at the closest officer with it, thereby getting himself shot with a duty Glock, resulting in no chance of ever being a problem again.
At no point did any of us standing right there wish we were "enjoying" a classic antique firearm.
I'm unable to get the basic idea across of being so close to death that you can literally smell it, you can hear it, you may be feeling it, you might be wrestling with it, you may only have one hand available to shoot with, and you may already be injured yourself.
This is not the range, this is not "enjoying" anything whatever. It is not sitting in the recliner in the living room admiring the lines of a long-obsolete collector piece. It's a true "near death experience" that may very easily turn into something more than "near", and I could be more graphic in trying to get the point across, but it's a family show here.
I've seen enough of the results of fatal encounters to address this issue, and I won't apologize for doing so.
Those who may be thinking of doing something similar at least have access now to enough information to make an informed decision, rather than strictly an emotional one.
Denis
Add Comment: Using the "It worked 100 years ago..." argument makes every bit as much sense as advocating the use of a sword. "Hey, swords worked 200 years ago, what's wrong with carrying one today?"
Magnum Wheel Man
New member
While I'm agreeing that maybe I should have included the "don't try this... warning"
I'm a big guy with martial arts training, who has had very physical jobs & lifestyle my whole life... "normal" bad guys wouldn't think I'm an easy mark... even before I disply a weapon...
I also always carry an extremely bright flashlight... in any low light situation, this comes out, even before / during my decision of weather I'm going to need my gun... blinding the bad guy might mean I don't need to put my antique into use...
my handloads are "sane" pressures don't need to be excessive, to roughly match the 380... the gun shows no sighs of disliking these loads at all...
now... I personally think the old S&W is a much classier carry than my TCP... they both hold the same rounds, roughly the same power level... some could argue the new Taurus is not as good as an old S&W ??? not my point... I carry the TCP when I rollerblade, in case I were to fall & damage the gun... the plastic gun is a bit more corrosion stabil in high persperation situations... I'm not saying either caliber is the end all in self defense calibers... but for everyday small town carry by someone that's not often chosen as an easy mark... they are "probably" good enough... at least for me...
the rest of you should all just send me your junky old snubbie revolvers... because they obviously aren't good enough for you for self defense... & I'll keep them safely out of the bad guys hands...
I'm a big guy with martial arts training, who has had very physical jobs & lifestyle my whole life... "normal" bad guys wouldn't think I'm an easy mark... even before I disply a weapon...
I also always carry an extremely bright flashlight... in any low light situation, this comes out, even before / during my decision of weather I'm going to need my gun... blinding the bad guy might mean I don't need to put my antique into use...
my handloads are "sane" pressures don't need to be excessive, to roughly match the 380... the gun shows no sighs of disliking these loads at all...
now... I personally think the old S&W is a much classier carry than my TCP... they both hold the same rounds, roughly the same power level... some could argue the new Taurus is not as good as an old S&W ??? not my point... I carry the TCP when I rollerblade, in case I were to fall & damage the gun... the plastic gun is a bit more corrosion stabil in high persperation situations... I'm not saying either caliber is the end all in self defense calibers... but for everyday small town carry by someone that's not often chosen as an easy mark... they are "probably" good enough... at least for me...
the rest of you should all just send me your junky old snubbie revolvers... because they obviously aren't good enough for you for self defense... & I'll keep them safely out of the bad guys hands...
Mag,
The guy with the hatchet took on three armed cops, all bigger'n him, with handguns pointed right at him. He was actually able to strike the SIG in one officer's hand with it. Things happen fast & close, and some of these people are just so far out of it that they don't even care what they're facing, they'll still attack.
I wouldn't count on your size to save you through intimidation.
Many years ago it took five of us to remove one determined guy from a courthouse who couldn't have weighed more than 150 pounds at around 5'6".
I learned early on the business that once somebody's made up his or her mind, physical size on either side of the equation is not a determining factor in pursuing the goal of killing, and that doesn't even apply to the use of a gun. On either side.
Not to belittle your martial arts background, but it doesn't stop a bullet.
If you're getting 900-1000 FPS (typical .380 ACP velocity range in 3-4-inch barrels) through your snub with handloads, you're stressing it.
Cartridges Of The World shows 800-1000 FPS for the .380, and 630-700 FPS for the .38 S&W.
SAAMI pressure limits of 21,500 for the .380 ACP and 15,500 for the .38 S&W would show further differences between the two rounds, and I can't see you pulling off .380 velocities through your short barrel without creating pressures far beyond those it was originally designed around, even in the slightly more spacious .38 S&W case.
You may very well not see any signs of your gun not "liking" your loads, right up until the instant it blows a couple chambers or lets loose at the latch.
You keep it up, it WILL catch up with you.
Interestingly, re your flashlight comment, there's a post by a longtime trainer at professional levels on another forum that basically leads off with "I Ain't Gonna Be Polite No More, I'm Just Gonna Lay It Out!"
In training several hundred people in LE this past year or so, along with past experience, he found that if you do not have that light in your hand when an immediate threat presents, you won't get it in hand in time to do anything with it. (This obviously applies, as I said, to an immediate threat, one that's unannounced, sudden, too close to use cover or withdraw.)
He found, even among experienced people with brightlight training, the sudden response of the brain to close and dynamic threatening stimuli will direct your response to the gun, not the light. Your brain won't split your motor responses in two different directions in sending your hands to a defensive tool.
Your off-side hand may be directed toward pushing off an assailant while your strong hand draws the gun, blocks a blow, moves a friend or family member out of the way, etc., but the light is not part of the response.
That means its effectiveness is limited to those occasions where you may have warning of some sort and a conscious decision to already have the light in your hand.
If the threat is too sudden, the light almost certainly won't be in your hand, and won't be a realistic factor in your defense.
And, I'm not scorning a modern .38 SPECIAL snub, from Colt, S&W, or Ruger, with a double-action design that can be fired rapidly with one hand, equipped with more visible sights, crafted of modern heat-treated steels, using a good bullet at decent velocities.
Nor do I scorn the proud possession of classic antiques. I have a 1927 I-frame Smith in .38 S&W that I've shot, but won't carry, and a British Enfield in .38 S&W with a snub barrel that I enjoy owning, but have never gotten around to shooting, and would never carry defensively unless it was absolutely all I had. Both are from eras where steel was at least heat-treated to some degree, and the Enfield is much less likely to jump its latch than your Smith, even if I were to use hotter loads, which it will never be subjected to. That gun was built for hard use, yours wasn't.
You may notice I have not pushed any specific choice of caliber, cartridge, or delivery system. I occasionally carry an Airweight S&W .38 Special five-shot snub, when things like doctor visits indicate less visibility than belt carry is desirable.
As far as the "Small Town=Small Threat Level" goes, look back at the teenage girl I mentioned earlier, shot on a lonely country road between a town of 500 inhabitants and a town of maybe 5,000 inhabitants.
I'll mention an elderly lady raped in her home in a town of less than 700 people.
And so on.
We're all playing the numbers anyway, in hoping we will never become one of the "It Happened To Me" stats. The numbers do run in our favor, but anybody who figures "it can't happen to me" is deluding themselves, and anybody who thinks there's enough reason to carry a gun for protective use has more than enough reason to carry a practical one.
I could counter your "small town-low threat" statement with this: Then why bother to carry a gun at all?
And, lest you feel I'm dumping on you unduly, imagine somebody coming on this forum and making the following post: I have this really spiffy antique .22 LR single-shot rolling block Remington, I can hit soda cans at 50 yards with it all day long, I'm gonna take it grizzly hunting 'cause it's my baby."
You'd expect nobody to get on and say "Whoa, there! You REALLY oughta re-think that." in the aftermath?
I consider it the same.
Denis
The guy with the hatchet took on three armed cops, all bigger'n him, with handguns pointed right at him. He was actually able to strike the SIG in one officer's hand with it. Things happen fast & close, and some of these people are just so far out of it that they don't even care what they're facing, they'll still attack.
I wouldn't count on your size to save you through intimidation.
Many years ago it took five of us to remove one determined guy from a courthouse who couldn't have weighed more than 150 pounds at around 5'6".
I learned early on the business that once somebody's made up his or her mind, physical size on either side of the equation is not a determining factor in pursuing the goal of killing, and that doesn't even apply to the use of a gun. On either side.
Not to belittle your martial arts background, but it doesn't stop a bullet.
If you're getting 900-1000 FPS (typical .380 ACP velocity range in 3-4-inch barrels) through your snub with handloads, you're stressing it.
Cartridges Of The World shows 800-1000 FPS for the .380, and 630-700 FPS for the .38 S&W.
SAAMI pressure limits of 21,500 for the .380 ACP and 15,500 for the .38 S&W would show further differences between the two rounds, and I can't see you pulling off .380 velocities through your short barrel without creating pressures far beyond those it was originally designed around, even in the slightly more spacious .38 S&W case.
You may very well not see any signs of your gun not "liking" your loads, right up until the instant it blows a couple chambers or lets loose at the latch.
You keep it up, it WILL catch up with you.
Interestingly, re your flashlight comment, there's a post by a longtime trainer at professional levels on another forum that basically leads off with "I Ain't Gonna Be Polite No More, I'm Just Gonna Lay It Out!"
In training several hundred people in LE this past year or so, along with past experience, he found that if you do not have that light in your hand when an immediate threat presents, you won't get it in hand in time to do anything with it. (This obviously applies, as I said, to an immediate threat, one that's unannounced, sudden, too close to use cover or withdraw.)
He found, even among experienced people with brightlight training, the sudden response of the brain to close and dynamic threatening stimuli will direct your response to the gun, not the light. Your brain won't split your motor responses in two different directions in sending your hands to a defensive tool.
Your off-side hand may be directed toward pushing off an assailant while your strong hand draws the gun, blocks a blow, moves a friend or family member out of the way, etc., but the light is not part of the response.
That means its effectiveness is limited to those occasions where you may have warning of some sort and a conscious decision to already have the light in your hand.
If the threat is too sudden, the light almost certainly won't be in your hand, and won't be a realistic factor in your defense.
And, I'm not scorning a modern .38 SPECIAL snub, from Colt, S&W, or Ruger, with a double-action design that can be fired rapidly with one hand, equipped with more visible sights, crafted of modern heat-treated steels, using a good bullet at decent velocities.
Nor do I scorn the proud possession of classic antiques. I have a 1927 I-frame Smith in .38 S&W that I've shot, but won't carry, and a British Enfield in .38 S&W with a snub barrel that I enjoy owning, but have never gotten around to shooting, and would never carry defensively unless it was absolutely all I had. Both are from eras where steel was at least heat-treated to some degree, and the Enfield is much less likely to jump its latch than your Smith, even if I were to use hotter loads, which it will never be subjected to. That gun was built for hard use, yours wasn't.
You may notice I have not pushed any specific choice of caliber, cartridge, or delivery system. I occasionally carry an Airweight S&W .38 Special five-shot snub, when things like doctor visits indicate less visibility than belt carry is desirable.
As far as the "Small Town=Small Threat Level" goes, look back at the teenage girl I mentioned earlier, shot on a lonely country road between a town of 500 inhabitants and a town of maybe 5,000 inhabitants.
I'll mention an elderly lady raped in her home in a town of less than 700 people.
And so on.
We're all playing the numbers anyway, in hoping we will never become one of the "It Happened To Me" stats. The numbers do run in our favor, but anybody who figures "it can't happen to me" is deluding themselves, and anybody who thinks there's enough reason to carry a gun for protective use has more than enough reason to carry a practical one.
I could counter your "small town-low threat" statement with this: Then why bother to carry a gun at all?
And, lest you feel I'm dumping on you unduly, imagine somebody coming on this forum and making the following post: I have this really spiffy antique .22 LR single-shot rolling block Remington, I can hit soda cans at 50 yards with it all day long, I'm gonna take it grizzly hunting 'cause it's my baby."
You'd expect nobody to get on and say "Whoa, there! You REALLY oughta re-think that." in the aftermath?
I consider it the same.
Denis
Magnum Wheel Man
New member
DENIS... you may ( or may not have ) noticed my lack of attack on you... ( even though you're raining on my parade ) because I think you offer good advice in general...
butt... alot of your replys are based like you are a police officer ( I'm not... & my response to any threat presented to me is dictated by my state's laws )... my response ( by state law ) says I have to retreat if any retreat is possible... that by nature, makes alot of your posted scenarios not relevant to my situation...
butt... alot of your replys are based like you are a police officer ( I'm not... & my response to any threat presented to me is dictated by my state's laws )... my response ( by state law ) says I have to retreat if any retreat is possible... that by nature, makes alot of your posted scenarios not relevant to my situation...
Mag,
And I'd hope you see I'm not "attacking" you, just your ideas on that gun.
The personal experiences I listed above were to illustrate principles (quick, close, violent) that can apply to any violent encounter, in uniform or not, and to illustrate that more than occasionally NO factor (gun, physical size, light) short of a shooting response, can be counted on to stop you yourself being killed. In such times, you want the most defensive package you can manage, not the least.
I mentioned applicable experiences to avoid the "I heard..." and "I read somewhere..." stuff. My impressions are not based on anything Hollywood shows us day after day, or "Great-Grandpap said he shot a skunk one day with this gun, good enough for him, good enough for me to carry." anecdotal stories.
Other examples, such as the innocent victims were to illustrate that it can happen anywhere, to anybody.
Even in a Must Retreat State, which I appreciate, if it's not possible to retreat, or once having retreated as far as possible, an adequate tool is justified if any tool is justified.
I'm a retired cop, today where I have a choice my own equipment is actually either at the same level I carried on duty, or higher. I saw what worked, and what didn't.
I didn't mention the night I stumbled across a guy beating a woman in the middle of the road many years back in a lesser-travelled section of town. Between PDs & going to school on the GI Bill at the time, I didn't have to stop, but when I did my .357 Magnum vs the knife in his hand made me feel a hell of a lot more confident than an ancient popgun would have.
I'm not talking about looking for trouble, I'm not talking about just "cop situations", and I understand Retreat statutes, but my examples have been to show universal basic concepts that apply whether you look for trouble or it finds you.
Denis
And I'd hope you see I'm not "attacking" you, just your ideas on that gun.
The personal experiences I listed above were to illustrate principles (quick, close, violent) that can apply to any violent encounter, in uniform or not, and to illustrate that more than occasionally NO factor (gun, physical size, light) short of a shooting response, can be counted on to stop you yourself being killed. In such times, you want the most defensive package you can manage, not the least.
I mentioned applicable experiences to avoid the "I heard..." and "I read somewhere..." stuff. My impressions are not based on anything Hollywood shows us day after day, or "Great-Grandpap said he shot a skunk one day with this gun, good enough for him, good enough for me to carry." anecdotal stories.
Other examples, such as the innocent victims were to illustrate that it can happen anywhere, to anybody.
Even in a Must Retreat State, which I appreciate, if it's not possible to retreat, or once having retreated as far as possible, an adequate tool is justified if any tool is justified.
I'm a retired cop, today where I have a choice my own equipment is actually either at the same level I carried on duty, or higher. I saw what worked, and what didn't.
I didn't mention the night I stumbled across a guy beating a woman in the middle of the road many years back in a lesser-travelled section of town. Between PDs & going to school on the GI Bill at the time, I didn't have to stop, but when I did my .357 Magnum vs the knife in his hand made me feel a hell of a lot more confident than an ancient popgun would have.
I'm not talking about looking for trouble, I'm not talking about just "cop situations", and I understand Retreat statutes, but my examples have been to show universal basic concepts that apply whether you look for trouble or it finds you.
Denis
jglsprings
New member
Here is an interesting read, on this very highjacked topic:
http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/articles/handguns/choosing-a-defensive-handgun
He goes on and on, over much of what has been covered here. And in the third paragraph from the end of the article makes an interesting observation about 5 shot revolvers. (I wish I could just cut and paste to the chase, but alas no).
Also, his delivery was conversational and not belligerent or accusatory.
http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/articles/handguns/choosing-a-defensive-handgun
He goes on and on, over much of what has been covered here. And in the third paragraph from the end of the article makes an interesting observation about 5 shot revolvers. (I wish I could just cut and paste to the chase, but alas no).
Also, his delivery was conversational and not belligerent or accusatory.
You & I may disagree over a strong opinion positively stated with supporting information vs "belligerent or accusatory", in which case we'll just have to continue disagreeing there.
But, I've said just about everything I think's relevant, and I've addressed some opinions that are just getting repetitive.
I'm done.
Denis
But, I've said just about everything I think's relevant, and I've addressed some opinions that are just getting repetitive.
I'm done.
Denis