sigelitest
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Too much penetration, .357 vs .45acp.
- Thread starter napg19
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Where hardball is concerned, I agree. Just so we all understand that it's the ammo choice within the caliber that determines penetration--not the caliber.
158 gr., the big "slow" one for that caliber is a deep penetrator. The 125 gr. does not usually exit a human target.
NapQ, the 110 gr. .357's are known for extremely quick expansion and less penetration than MANY feel is inadequate. The 125 gr.'s are what made it famous on the street, and the 158 gr. would offer the best penetration for hunting some reasonably large critters. The DPX might be the best for SD and hunting.
I found CorBon's 125 gr. DPX at 1300 fps to be quite a bit more pleasant to shoot than full power 125 gr. If I had a smaller gun I was determined to shoot .357 in, that would be the load. For biggeer guns, too, for that matter.
What was your friend's gun that you torture tested with 1000 rds. without cleaning?
Rampant_Colt
New member
This overpenetration issue is way overblown..
I keep both .45s and a .357 loaded in my residence. The .45s are stoked with 230gr W-W Ranger-T [or R-P 230gr Golden Sabre] and .357 with 125gr Federal or Remington SJHP.
If you're concerned about overpenetration, try using 110gr or 125gr SJHP .357 Magnums, or 185gr JHP Golden Sabre or DPX for the .45 ACP
get your answer here: http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm
I keep both .45s and a .357 loaded in my residence. The .45s are stoked with 230gr W-W Ranger-T [or R-P 230gr Golden Sabre] and .357 with 125gr Federal or Remington SJHP.
If you're concerned about overpenetration, try using 110gr or 125gr SJHP .357 Magnums, or 185gr JHP Golden Sabre or DPX for the .45 ACP
get your answer here: http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm
choose your shots carefully!
Edward429451
Moderator
I wouldn't want to be so safe from over penetration that I was not safe and have less options. I like having the option of penetration in this day and age.
Boy, I really expected to catch hell from the .45 fans. Didn't happen. Good.
I recently learned ALL the LEO around here have switched to .45. At first, I wondered if it had to do with stopping power. But I now believe it has to do with recoil, and ease of shooting.
A lot of folks DO NOT like the .40 because of the recoil. And as much as I like the .40, a round is only good if you can hit your target.
I recently learned ALL the LEO around here have switched to .45. At first, I wondered if it had to do with stopping power. But I now believe it has to do with recoil, and ease of shooting.
A lot of folks DO NOT like the .40 because of the recoil. And as much as I like the .40, a round is only good if you can hit your target.
Get a permit and hunt a hog, then test teh ammo on his dead body, open him up and see first hand what the round did inside. I was surprised the first time I did this on an old dead cow, the HPs didnt get into the cavity but stopped at the ribs. FMJ went thru the ribs and got inside the cavity, this is what stops a person, interior damage.
Guess it only matters IF you need to use your handgun in a self defense situation. My point being, how many members on this forum have had to use their handgun in a self defense situation in the public arena?
This is just my thought on the topic of over penetration. Chances are in your favor that you will never have to use your handgun in a self defense situation and there is nothing wrong with CCW and being prepared.
This is just my thought on the topic of over penetration. Chances are in your favor that you will never have to use your handgun in a self defense situation and there is nothing wrong with CCW and being prepared.
I never even give over penetration a second thought for carry. If I hit a bystander, it's more probable, i guess, that it would be from a miss. If I am lucky enough to get a full penetrating hit on a bad guy, there are a lot of considerations there. First consideration is that unless there is a person smack dab behind him, it doesn't matter. Second consideration is that in all likelihood, a used up, expanded bullet at 10-30% or so of its initial velocity will probably pose little threat to a secondary target. My guess is that out of a hundred actual shootings, there may be 1 or 2 that involve an actual solid body hit that over penetrate and then go on to cause serious harm to a bystander. (if you don't get that solid body shot, can you really blame overpenetration on the chosen round? not at all.)
Am I going to worry about the slight chance that a bystander will be hurt by over penetration, or am I going to put all my energy and concern into making sure that a bad guy doesn't kill me and/or several bystanders? The answer seems pretty simple to me. NO.
I worry about over penetration in a home scenario, though. I have family and neighbors who live in the area, and a bit of sheetrock, hollow doors, window glass, etc, pose no obstacle to a shotgun slug, .44 magnum, or 308 round. some people set no limits on what they're going to use inside their own homes. I'm never going to drop the hammer on something that I know fully well can go through two houses and still kill my neighbor's poodle.
Am I going to worry about the slight chance that a bystander will be hurt by over penetration, or am I going to put all my energy and concern into making sure that a bad guy doesn't kill me and/or several bystanders? The answer seems pretty simple to me. NO.
I worry about over penetration in a home scenario, though. I have family and neighbors who live in the area, and a bit of sheetrock, hollow doors, window glass, etc, pose no obstacle to a shotgun slug, .44 magnum, or 308 round. some people set no limits on what they're going to use inside their own homes. I'm never going to drop the hammer on something that I know fully well can go through two houses and still kill my neighbor's poodle.
CarbineCaleb
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Full house .357 Magnum loads easily outpenetrate .45ACP. The .357 drives a bullet of the same sectional density much faster than the .45.
Even the 125gr JHPs (SD=0.14, Vel=1450fps**) in .357 go through a 16-inch gelatin block:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Speer%20125%20grain%20Gold%20Dot%20hollowpoint.html
...but yes, the 158gr JHPs penetrate better, 180gr JHPs better, and 180-200gr hardcast will go through most anything.
**Compare that to even the hotrodded .45ACP+P - 200gr bullet, SD=0.14, Vel=1050fps - .357 has 40% more velocity for the equivalent bullet than .45ACP+P.
Even the 125gr JHPs (SD=0.14, Vel=1450fps**) in .357 go through a 16-inch gelatin block:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Speer%20125%20grain%20Gold%20Dot%20hollowpoint.html
...but yes, the 158gr JHPs penetrate better, 180gr JHPs better, and 180-200gr hardcast will go through most anything.
**Compare that to even the hotrodded .45ACP+P - 200gr bullet, SD=0.14, Vel=1050fps - .357 has 40% more velocity for the equivalent bullet than .45ACP+P.
I would like to see someone post some evidence that someone was shot with a bullet that over-penetrated someone else. I have never heard this happening and from FBI reports, they have no either. (Report was a few years old.)
As others have mentioned, over-penetration taking out another person (innocent or not) is not the problem, shots that miss the target are the problem, if they hit an innocent bystander.
As others have mentioned, over-penetration taking out another person (innocent or not) is not the problem, shots that miss the target are the problem, if they hit an innocent bystander.
"Full house .357 Magnum loads easily outpenetrate .45ACP. " is this so???
if this is so, would stopping humans or beasts be better accomplished when greater penetration is known to occur with one round over the other???
if the .357 mag penetrates surer would a .6in hole in an organ make much of a difference than .8in hole..wouldnt the organ still be destroyed??
same issue with a vein or artery??? and haveing to get to that vein or artery through clothing, accessories or in some caes glass, walls or doors??
in such defense cases would the surer penetrator offer a greater effectiveness because penetration is absolutely necessary to stopping function of vital organs??
or does something happen to a lower mass/higher energy object when solids are hit that changes things in favor of higher mass/lower engery projectiles???
that is the case correct??? .357mag less mass and higher energy while the .45acp has greater mass/lower energy???
if this is so, would stopping humans or beasts be better accomplished when greater penetration is known to occur with one round over the other???
if the .357 mag penetrates surer would a .6in hole in an organ make much of a difference than .8in hole..wouldnt the organ still be destroyed??
same issue with a vein or artery??? and haveing to get to that vein or artery through clothing, accessories or in some caes glass, walls or doors??
in such defense cases would the surer penetrator offer a greater effectiveness because penetration is absolutely necessary to stopping function of vital organs??
or does something happen to a lower mass/higher energy object when solids are hit that changes things in favor of higher mass/lower engery projectiles???
that is the case correct??? .357mag less mass and higher energy while the .45acp has greater mass/lower energy???
CarbineCaleb
New member
sthomper said:
Yes.
CarbineCaleb
New member
sthomper said:
Yes.
Stopping power people can argue about until the cows come home. But penetration is much simpler. If you want to know which cartridge (for similar style handgun bullets, i.e. both JHPs or both nonexpanding) will penetrate further, just:
- Look at ballistics table
- Find bullets with same (or nearly) sectional density - you can find SD on e.g. Speer bullets site
- Check which cartridge pushes the same SD bullet faster - that one will penetrate deeper, simple as that
If you don't believe me, here's an example - look at the Brassfetcher gelatin results for the 125gr .357 Magnum JHP and the 200gr .45ACP+P JHP. These have exactly the same sectional density (0.14), but the .357 flies 40% faster. The .45 penetrates about 12 inches, while the .357 goes clean through the 16 inch block.
The same reckoning works for anything though. It's a property of the physics of the bullet striking the medium.
P.S. A corollary is that for 2 bullets of the same velocity, the one with the higher sectional density will penetrate deeper.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/FlyingAshtray.html
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Speer%20125%20grain%20Gold%20Dot%20hollowpoint.html
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inSight-NEO
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I both agree and disagree. Yes, quite a bit of emphasis is placed on over penetration which, in many cases, can border on sheer paranoia. However, having too much vs not enough? This depends on several variables...none of which I will bother mentioning. Either way, I generally agree.
To the OP-
Given the specific comparison of "effective" defense .357 Magnum loads vs. those of the .45ACP, I vote that, overall, the .45ACP would tend to be less penetrative.
Again, given this particular caliber comparison, I believe that the ability to actually control the weapon should be strongly considered vs. getting hung up on penetration issues. Both of the compared loads are proven man stoppers, penetration aside. Regardless, in terms of control, coupled with stopping capability (and, if one must consider it, less penetration vs. full house .357 mag loads) I think the .45ACP excels.
I adore the .357 magnum...I really do. In particular, I love the 125g. Federal 357B loads. However, such loads are hard to control and from what I gather, can be needlessly penetrative for personal defense use. This is where the .45ACP comes in.
Having said this, I would not get too hung up on the penetration thing as stopping an attack is paramount. And honestly, if a bullet (JHP) does manage to find its way through an individual, what are the odds that it will actually continue on (with enough velocity) to inflict mortal wounds on an innocent bystander? After all, as potent as some of these handgun loads can be, we are not speaking of rifles here. Chances are, if an innocent bystander is mortally wounded, then we are dealing with a complete miss...not a gross penetration issue.
Hence, control/effectiveness first, penetration issues (even though worth considering) are generally second. But, control may not mean as much when firing at, say, 3 yards or less. However, effectiveness will always matter.
Regardless, once any bullet leaves the bore, risks are involved. One can only assume a calculated risk. This is where practice, maturity and situational awareness come in to play.
Oh...and as a side note, going with a 9mm may not solve all of your problems, unless capacity is your main concern.
Too much recoil? Apparently, they have not shot very many large caliber handguns.....
I guess these .40 S&W naysayers simply need more practice and/or should simply quit complaining and stick with an "easier" caliber. Each to their own, I suppose.
Besides, the .40 S&W is a high pressure load...similar to shooting 9mm +P. What do you expect? So ends my off topic rant.
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if the .357 mag penetrates surer would a .6in hole in an organ make much of a difference than .8in hole..wouldnt the organ still be destroyed??
same issue with a vein or artery??? and haveing to get to that vein or artery through clothing, accessories or in some caes glass, walls or doors??
in such defense cases would the surer penetrator offer a greater effectiveness because penetration is absolutely necessary to stopping function of vital organs??
from a bullet perspective, cartridge/weapon combo aside...
same issue with a vein or artery??? and haveing to get to that vein or artery through clothing, accessories or in some caes glass, walls or doors??
in such defense cases would the surer penetrator offer a greater effectiveness because penetration is absolutely necessary to stopping function of vital organs??
from a bullet perspective, cartridge/weapon combo aside...
QuarterHorse
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I don't have anybody ever volunteering to step out in front of my 1911, it must do a decent job. Although I don't have anybody stepping in front of the 586 Smith either. 
I have 2 thoughts on the matter. One is that it is really a non issue. Statistics tell us that outright misses are more common than not during an episode. The rounds over penetrate the air around the badguy and go whistling down range anyway. The second is the autopsy photos and recovered slug I examined from a woman who had been "accidentally" shot a point blank range in the face with a full house 158 grain soft point .357 Smith and Wesson. It made it a few inches into the brain cavity. It never exited, and the slug in fact looked pretty good still. Barely deformed. I was so surprised that I checked the recovered partial box of ammo to be sure it was not a .38 Special. Bullets do funny things. My own thought is to pick a good defensive round and get your fundamentals down so you are less likely to be one of the guys shooting near the intended target, and you ARE one of the guys shooting into the intended target. We all have our preferences, but I think we spend too much time obsessing over minutia regarding magic bullets.
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absolutely.
Once you get past a certain threshold of effectiveness, maybe it is a .38, maybe it is a .380, I'm not going to argue that, but once you have a cartridge with enough wounding capacity, the fact is, that probably 90% of the problem of whether you will disable your opponent with a single fired shot, or even two, is completely external to your choice of cartridge. A round can miss, it can be blocked, it can fail to wound up to expectation, it can hit in a useless area, and just as importantly, there just isn't any way of compensating for the absolute unpredictability of a gun battle.
A person has to try to press chances into his own favor by buying historically effective rounds, but in reality, none of this preparation can guarantee victory.
That is a pretty fatalistic view, but I'm a realist.
I'd like to point out that when Bonnie and Clyde took out the police in a famous gun battle, people blamed it on the kinds of weapons they used.
Fact is, the weapons had nothing to do with it. it was the fact that those cops were buried in a hail of lead, and killed because they were hit, not because they were hit with a majic bullet. The baddies got away because they WEREN'T hit. reports said that one of them was actually hit in the side, and clyde was hit but the bullet was deflected. Another was slightly wounded by a ricochet. Not bad for only 14 rounds fired from service revolvers. When B&C died later, once again, it wasn't a matter of what they were hit with, it was a matter of how many times. (50?)
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