I carry a SP101 3" with 158gr. JHP. I figure this should be enough to stop a BG. Or is it going to go through a person and hit a innocent? Recently I got to shot a 1911 .45 and am looking at several carry models. Had a series 70 37 years ago and forgot how much I liked to shoot it. But is a 230gr. JHP going to go through a BG and hit a innocent? I have seen some really stout people and some average to smaller framed people who make themselves suspisious to the average public. I don't want to go over board with my way of what I carry, ( I'm trying not to be paranoid is what I'm trying to say). Go back to .38+P or get a bigger hog leg and two pairs of suspenders to hold up my pants? My SP101 is sometimes enough to carry even with my gun belt and a good holster. Hope this is not a stupid thread, just need some good ol' knowledge thrown my way. Used to have a Glock 19. Maybe I should just go back to 9mm. Thanks.
Too much penetration, .357 vs .45acp.
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The 45acp HP is less likely to penetrate a perp completely and injure a bystander than a 357mag HP because of the 357mag's significantly higher muzzle energy. If you're concerned with over penetration and you like shooting a 1911 style pistol, that may be a better choice for you.
I'm gonna buck the trend here, but I think people (citizens, not LEO) worry too much today about over penetration. TO me, its better to have too much, than not enough.
Yes, a bullet that goes all the way through is a danger to "innocents", BUT, stop and think for a few minutes. What are the actual odds of you firing in self defense and having your bullet hit someone beyond the target? Look at your personal situation, and every concievable defense scenario you might be involved in.
Remember that you are not the police, who do face every possible situation, day in and day out across the range of the department. Remember that while a bullet that completely penetrates still has energy, it does give up alot during transit of the target. And that the exact angle of exit is not predictable. Being sure of your target and what is behind it applies to defensive shooting as well. I would worry more about a miss going on to strike someone (as statistically unlikely as that is) than I would about a bullet completely penetrating and doing the same thing.
Another thing to consider, and you seem to have done some of that, is that there are some really drastic differences in the size of people. And choosing a load that will (generally) not penetrate all the way through a 160lb individual's torso might mean that it won't reach the vitals of a 280lb thug.
One incident that clarified things for me involved a shooting with a .45acp. I don't recall the exact load used any more, but it was a JHP, and one that was considered to have adequate, but not "excessive" penetration. Due to the dynamics of the shooting, the bullet went through the bad guy's arm, before entering the chest. It barely got to where it needed to go.
Carry what you have confidence in. Don't worry too much about the armchair experts (this one included) opinions. Do some thinking about your priorities, and reasonable risks. For myself, I'd rather have something I can count on to get where it needs to go, no matter what, and accept what I consider the miniscule risk to the public from a bullet going all the way through.
Police agencies, particularly in metro areas have a different risk assessment than I do. Likely different from you as well. How many times in your life do you think you might have to face that situation? How many hundreds, or thousands of times will an entire metro police dept face it, over the course of as many years? For them, being concerned about overpenetration should be at a different level than for you, or I.
For your listed choice, the only thing I can say is that a 125gr JHP has less potential for "overpenetration" than a 158gr JHP. But remember it is only potential. What happens in a real world situation depends on so many variables, that it cannot be calculated beforehand with any degree of certainty.
The only thing that is certain to shut down a violent attacker is stopping the transmission of nerve impulses to the muscles. Hitting the brain/CNS is one way to do it. The only other way is when the brain shuts down from lack of oxygen. And that can take longer. As much as a minute, or maybe more, depending on many variables. Enough blood loss, and the brain shuts down. How long that will take depends on a lot of things, but as far as I'm concerned, having two bullet holes (entrance and exit) can't do anything but speed that process. Just my opinion, and worth what you paid for it.
Yes, a bullet that goes all the way through is a danger to "innocents", BUT, stop and think for a few minutes. What are the actual odds of you firing in self defense and having your bullet hit someone beyond the target? Look at your personal situation, and every concievable defense scenario you might be involved in.
Remember that you are not the police, who do face every possible situation, day in and day out across the range of the department. Remember that while a bullet that completely penetrates still has energy, it does give up alot during transit of the target. And that the exact angle of exit is not predictable. Being sure of your target and what is behind it applies to defensive shooting as well. I would worry more about a miss going on to strike someone (as statistically unlikely as that is) than I would about a bullet completely penetrating and doing the same thing.
Another thing to consider, and you seem to have done some of that, is that there are some really drastic differences in the size of people. And choosing a load that will (generally) not penetrate all the way through a 160lb individual's torso might mean that it won't reach the vitals of a 280lb thug.
One incident that clarified things for me involved a shooting with a .45acp. I don't recall the exact load used any more, but it was a JHP, and one that was considered to have adequate, but not "excessive" penetration. Due to the dynamics of the shooting, the bullet went through the bad guy's arm, before entering the chest. It barely got to where it needed to go.
Carry what you have confidence in. Don't worry too much about the armchair experts (this one included) opinions. Do some thinking about your priorities, and reasonable risks. For myself, I'd rather have something I can count on to get where it needs to go, no matter what, and accept what I consider the miniscule risk to the public from a bullet going all the way through.
Police agencies, particularly in metro areas have a different risk assessment than I do. Likely different from you as well. How many times in your life do you think you might have to face that situation? How many hundreds, or thousands of times will an entire metro police dept face it, over the course of as many years? For them, being concerned about overpenetration should be at a different level than for you, or I.
For your listed choice, the only thing I can say is that a 125gr JHP has less potential for "overpenetration" than a 158gr JHP. But remember it is only potential. What happens in a real world situation depends on so many variables, that it cannot be calculated beforehand with any degree of certainty.
The only thing that is certain to shut down a violent attacker is stopping the transmission of nerve impulses to the muscles. Hitting the brain/CNS is one way to do it. The only other way is when the brain shuts down from lack of oxygen. And that can take longer. As much as a minute, or maybe more, depending on many variables. Enough blood loss, and the brain shuts down. How long that will take depends on a lot of things, but as far as I'm concerned, having two bullet holes (entrance and exit) can't do anything but speed that process. Just my opinion, and worth what you paid for it.
Thanks, really appreciate the feed back. I'll keep the SP101 but have liked the feel of the Springfield EMP. Ambi safety for use lefty's. But the thought of having the hammer cocked even though the safety is on puts a chill down my spin. Funny thing is carring the G19 I had never bothered me. I can't explain that one. Thanks again.
I agree with everything .44 AMP said, which is not exactly going out on a limb, since everything 44 AMP stated was either fact and/or common sense. 
I saw a .45 round completely stopped by a medium sized book, yet a .40 S&W penetrated that same book. I'd say the .45 is among the least likely round to penetrate a person. But it's also why I prefer the .40 S&W; I don't want to rely on a bullet which is slowed or deflected by a pocket bible or a chunk of metallic "bling."
For all the .45 fans out there, feel free to flame away. Jeff Cooper must have shared the same idea, or else he would not have helped invent the .10mm/.40 S&W.
When I began shooting we did not have the .40, so I really appreciate the round! The .45 is a "proven man stopper" because (1) The .40 S&W was not around. (2) Men were a lot smaller, and not cranked up on meth/crack/all the above. Seriously, how many 300-lbs drug fiends did we have 20-30 years ago?
I love the full power .357, but good Lord, they are LOUD! I like to load 158 grain, hollow point, plated, Berry bullets at about 1,100 - 1,200 fps out of a 3" or 4" barrel. No jacket to shed, and not likely to lead the barrel
I saw a .45 round completely stopped by a medium sized book, yet a .40 S&W penetrated that same book. I'd say the .45 is among the least likely round to penetrate a person. But it's also why I prefer the .40 S&W; I don't want to rely on a bullet which is slowed or deflected by a pocket bible or a chunk of metallic "bling."
For all the .45 fans out there, feel free to flame away. Jeff Cooper must have shared the same idea, or else he would not have helped invent the .10mm/.40 S&W.
When I began shooting we did not have the .40, so I really appreciate the round! The .45 is a "proven man stopper" because (1) The .40 S&W was not around. (2) Men were a lot smaller, and not cranked up on meth/crack/all the above. Seriously, how many 300-lbs drug fiends did we have 20-30 years ago?
I love the full power .357, but good Lord, they are LOUD! I like to load 158 grain, hollow point, plated, Berry bullets at about 1,100 - 1,200 fps out of a 3" or 4" barrel. No jacket to shed, and not likely to lead the barrel
Another aspect of the "overpenetration" issue that 44 Amp didn't mention applies especially to non-expert shooters. *Any* caliber of bullet will "overpenetrate" if you miss your target, even a .22, because it will go somewhere that you did not intend it. :/ So picking something that you will practice with, and then practicing til you're proficient, is the first thing we all need to do to prevent hits on innocent bystanders.
I carry .38 +P instead of .357 in my M60, not out of concern about overpenetration when I hit, but because I shoot better with it and am less likely to miss.
I carry .38 +P instead of .357 in my M60, not out of concern about overpenetration when I hit, but because I shoot better with it and am less likely to miss.
mothermopar
New member
As to flaming over the 45 acp...
It'll penetrate enough to stop people. Certain bullets penetrate more than others. Shooting books is not the same as shooting flesh and bone, btw. While a wet book can simulate, it doesn't duplicate.
Mind you the 45 acp was tested and designed using live steer (not gelatin or books). Amazingly this testing on heavy boned, 800 pound animals produced the finest fighting handgun catridge ever conceived. I'm in law enforcement and can say that I've never run up against anyone built remotely as sturdy as a frigging @800 lb steer.
If you think a 40 will do a better job than the 45acp on a doped-up crook, you're mistaken. You can shoot, beat, stab and run over a strung out maniac and they'll keep going... It wouldn't matter what handgun caliber you hit them with. Heck, even tasers (which seize muscle and retard their function) can have zero effect on such perps.
For what it's worth, nearly every knowledgable gun enthusiast cop I know, given the chance, would carry either a 45acp and/or 357 over anyother handgun caliber... Myself included.
I'd also rather have the opportunity to carry a DA 45 Colt revolver as a BUG.
There's no denying history and a proven track record in real life use and not lab/field simulation.
Presently I carry a sig 40 cal and a 357 mag 5 shot as backup. The 40 is a great round... Make no mistake... But it sure as heck isn't 'better' than a 45acp in stopping crooks. Close to even but that's about it.
It'll penetrate enough to stop people. Certain bullets penetrate more than others. Shooting books is not the same as shooting flesh and bone, btw. While a wet book can simulate, it doesn't duplicate.
Mind you the 45 acp was tested and designed using live steer (not gelatin or books). Amazingly this testing on heavy boned, 800 pound animals produced the finest fighting handgun catridge ever conceived. I'm in law enforcement and can say that I've never run up against anyone built remotely as sturdy as a frigging @800 lb steer.
If you think a 40 will do a better job than the 45acp on a doped-up crook, you're mistaken. You can shoot, beat, stab and run over a strung out maniac and they'll keep going... It wouldn't matter what handgun caliber you hit them with. Heck, even tasers (which seize muscle and retard their function) can have zero effect on such perps.
For what it's worth, nearly every knowledgable gun enthusiast cop I know, given the chance, would carry either a 45acp and/or 357 over anyother handgun caliber... Myself included.
I'd also rather have the opportunity to carry a DA 45 Colt revolver as a BUG.
There's no denying history and a proven track record in real life use and not lab/field simulation.
Presently I carry a sig 40 cal and a 357 mag 5 shot as backup. The 40 is a great round... Make no mistake... But it sure as heck isn't 'better' than a 45acp in stopping crooks. Close to even but that's about it.
If you're referring to the Thompson-LaGarde Tests of 1904, they were horribly unscientific and inconclusive. Also, the best cartridge in the steer test was, in fact, the .30 Luger.
http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/background.htm#test
In actuality, both .45 ACP and .357 Magnum are excellent self-defense cartridges and have both been used and proven for many years (the .45 mainly by the military while the .357 Magnum was used extensively by law enforcement).
With regards to overpenetration, 44AMP really summed things up quite nicely. I would only add that overpenetration has been somewhat exaggerated by LE as a way to justify the carrying of politically-incorrect JHP ammunition.
Also, bear in mind that penetration of soft tissue and penetration of harder targets like sheet steel are very different and what works well for one may not work as well for the other. When talking about hard targets, the key is to deliver as much force as possible over the smallest possible surface area. Because of this, small-diameter high velocity cartridges like 7.62x25 Tokarev, .357 magnum, .357 Sig, and 5.7x28 FN will usually give the best results when trying to penetrate hard targets.
When we start looking at softer targets like human tissue, however, things get a bit more complicated. In this area, the cartridge with the lowest momentum-to-energy ratio will typically yield the best penetration. The explanation for this lies in physics. Momentum is the tendency of objects in motion to stay in motion so the projectile with more momentum will have more resistance to being stopped by soft tissue. With regards to energy, Newton's Third Law states that for every action there is an equal and opposing reaction. Because of this, the projectile which strikes with higher kinetic energy will experience more resistance from the target which will in turn retard penetration. Also, if you're using expanding ammunition like JHP or JSP, the higher energy projectiles will deform more and thusly further retard penetration.
In my mind, it's really a moot point. Nearly all premium JHP ammunition in major calibers is designed to consistently meet the FBI penetration standard of 12-16". 12" of penetration could fairly easily mean completely through the upper torso of an adult male if we assume a straight-on frontal shot much less a shot to an extremity like an arm or leg. In my opinion, overpenetration is an issue better addressed by tactics than by choice of caliber. If at all possible, you should try to position yourself in such a way that a shot which overpenetrates would pose the least risk to innocent bystanders should you be forced to fire your handgun. The best bet, in my opinion, is to use premium JHP ammo which penetrates at least 12" in ballistic gelatin, assume that everything will overpenetrate, and plan accordingly.
WVfishguy's added calibers were not mentioned by the OP, however, I believe they are as good or better (capacity wise) than either of the his choices. My personal ccw carry piece is actually a G23 (13+1) and I also have a custom G20L (17+1) that I use as my field sidearm.
My 45acp is a G21/21L and my newest toy is a custom G24 I recently finished. As for the OP's choices, my 357mag revolver is and SAA clone and I don't even own a 1911 so neither of his choices are in my arsenal.
My 45acp is a G21/21L and my newest toy is a custom G24 I recently finished. As for the OP's choices, my 357mag revolver is and SAA clone and I don't even own a 1911 so neither of his choices are in my arsenal.
There have been some interesting comments and observations made here about over penetration, but I can tell you this for fact. I have had the unforunate necessity over the years to send several old cows to that big pasture upstairs. One .45 ACP Gold Dot between the eyes and I haven't had one get back up yet. I've never had one of those bullets exit that I could tell either.
I don't mean to sound crude or insensative with the illustration but it would seem that enough penetration to get the job done with proper bullet placement and expansion is what anyone would want, regardless of caliber. Anything other than that could cause problems of one sort or another. Sometimes there are variables we can't predict or control which reinforces the importance of knowing what is beyond the target.
I don't mean to sound crude or insensative with the illustration but it would seem that enough penetration to get the job done with proper bullet placement and expansion is what anyone would want, regardless of caliber. Anything other than that could cause problems of one sort or another. Sometimes there are variables we can't predict or control which reinforces the importance of knowing what is beyond the target.
here is some data for you
.357 sig: 115 gr (7.5 g) Bonded defense JHP 1,550 ft/s(470 m/s) 614 ft·lbf (832 J)
.45 ACP: 185 gr (12.0 g) Buffalo Bore JHP +P [3] 1,080 ft/s (330 m/s) 479 ft·lbf (649 J)
u can see the 357sig is faster (1.5x) than the .45 while both will resit over penitration due to the nature of hollow point ammo, the sig has a higher likelyhood of overpenitration.
the raw data would also suggest that if it didnt over penitrate, the sig would me more likely to "one-shot-stop" than the .45. its energy is signifigantly higher. the trick is the bullets abillity to impart ALL of its kenitic energy to the target, by NOT over penetrating. a thru and thru would mean failure to deliver the maximum enegry to the target.
.357 sig: 115 gr (7.5 g) Bonded defense JHP 1,550 ft/s(470 m/s) 614 ft·lbf (832 J)
.45 ACP: 185 gr (12.0 g) Buffalo Bore JHP +P [3] 1,080 ft/s (330 m/s) 479 ft·lbf (649 J)
u can see the 357sig is faster (1.5x) than the .45 while both will resit over penitration due to the nature of hollow point ammo, the sig has a higher likelyhood of overpenitration.
the raw data would also suggest that if it didnt over penitrate, the sig would me more likely to "one-shot-stop" than the .45. its energy is signifigantly higher. the trick is the bullets abillity to impart ALL of its kenitic energy to the target, by NOT over penetrating. a thru and thru would mean failure to deliver the maximum enegry to the target.
quote:
"I'm gonna buck the trend here, but I think people (citizens, not LEO) worry too much today about over penetration. TO me, its better to have too much, than not enough."
I'll go one step further and say that over-penetration is hype, period.
You cannot predict the exit point and trajectory of any bullet fired into the human body, or even if it will exit, from any distance. It is very rare that a bullet fired thru center mass will travel a perfectly straight line. Most bullets fired into ballistic gel seldom travel a perfectly straight line. In fact some rifle bullets have been known to travel a considerable distance inside the body yet never exit at all.
"I'm gonna buck the trend here, but I think people (citizens, not LEO) worry too much today about over penetration. TO me, its better to have too much, than not enough."
I'll go one step further and say that over-penetration is hype, period.
You cannot predict the exit point and trajectory of any bullet fired into the human body, or even if it will exit, from any distance. It is very rare that a bullet fired thru center mass will travel a perfectly straight line. Most bullets fired into ballistic gel seldom travel a perfectly straight line. In fact some rifle bullets have been known to travel a considerable distance inside the body yet never exit at all.
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I agree that the 158 gr. is a good penetrator. It's lower velocity and heavy weight cause it to penetrat deep. I'd use that for hogs or Black Bear IF I were inclined to carry the .357 for that kind of protection.
For SD against two legged critters, I'd use the 125 gr. that made it famous, and didn't over penetrate.
When it comes to most HP designs, the higher the velocity (creating more energy) the greater (also quicker) the expansion. Too fast and the bullet may come apart.
Where non expanding bullets are concerned, then the greater the velocity, the greater the penetration. Just the opposite of what happens with HP's.
Kinda like the guy in the parachute. The faster he's going, the quicker the chute opens, and the faster he slows down. (creating quite a jolt in the process).
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pythagorean
Moderator
I think I might disagree here. The .45 hard ball WILL go through and through people as the Army has proven. So will the .357. So will the hard ball 9mm.
The thickness of the people these rounds hit and where they hit is more conclusive than a general statement concerning what is more or less likely to go through and through.
Even a .32 ACP from a Walther will go through and through depending upon the circumstance (or .22 rimfire).
LE is taught to be aware of what is near and behind a targeted threat because if the bullet does something bad beyond or near the intended point of impact there will be HE** to pay!
My belief is if I have to do it (shoot someone) I'd use whatever it takes up to a .458 rifle and let God sort it out later.....
The thickness of the people these rounds hit and where they hit is more conclusive than a general statement concerning what is more or less likely to go through and through.
Even a .32 ACP from a Walther will go through and through depending upon the circumstance (or .22 rimfire).
LE is taught to be aware of what is near and behind a targeted threat because if the bullet does something bad beyond or near the intended point of impact there will be HE** to pay!
My belief is if I have to do it (shoot someone) I'd use whatever it takes up to a .458 rifle and let God sort it out later.....
AcridSaint
New member
I wasn't aware that most of the proven man-stopping done with the 45 was of the 230Gr HP variety.
I thought there was quite a bit more data involving man-stopping with 125Gr HP and 158Gr LSWCHP 357/38+P rounds. Neither of which have high risks of over penetrating.
Learn something new every day.
1911_Hardball
New member
Regardless of what you are shooting; in a stress situation you are WAY more likely to hit an innocent person due to missing the intended target than you are due to over penetration. Innocent bystanders do occasionally get shot, and I'm not saying they never get hit by a bullet that has passed through someone else; but how many actual accounts of this is anyone here aware of where a bullet has passed through the torso of the BG and then hit a bystander, other officer, other BG, etc?
Them .45s do some damage, the valentines day massacre saw grown men wearing over coats almost cut in half by the amount of rounds that were shot into them.
357 or 45 acp, either one is a good round IMHO altho the 101 is a bit small for me, I prefer my gp100 with a 3 in barrel.
357 or 45 acp, either one is a good round IMHO altho the 101 is a bit small for me, I prefer my gp100 with a 3 in barrel.
I REALLY do appreciate this info. I'm still at work so I'll make this fast till tonight. For now I will go to the 125gr.mag. jhp. I do have some 110gr. mag. jhp from winchester. unfortunatly I have nowhere to test what a bullet can do , just paper at the indoor range. I need more practice with the lighter mag's and the +P's. THANKS GUY'S. Richard.
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