To warn or not to warn? That is the question.

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Posted by g. willikers:
Eghads, who are you hanging out with?
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That would be "most people".

And experts miss, too:

At a Simunitions course, I [Bartholomew Roberts] watched shooters who were much better than me (IPSC Masters and Grandmasters) miss actual men at distances a lot closer than eight feet. It can be a bit trickier than it looks on the range with a target standing there nice and still and not shooting back.
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http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6196214&postcount=57
 
A short story about having to shoot with lots of people around.
When simulations were using vhs taped scenarios, projectors and plain white replaceable screens, a local range had one with a scene of a picnic ground full of people enjoying their Sunday outing.

Running through the middle of all those ersatz folks was a madman with a rifle shooting up the place.
It was up to the participants to get him without hurting any innocents.
The game was actually rigged to disqualify anyone who took a shot at all.
Just to emphasize what OldMarksman is explaining.

But some of us took out the bad guy without any misses.
The guy running the simulation was just about amazed, saying we were the first ones who successfully did that.
And we asked him the same question: "who are you hanging out with?"
He was not amused.
But we weren't doing anything special, just what we had practiced.
 
But some of us took out the bad guy without any misses....

But we weren't doing anything special, just what we had practiced.
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I've done that almost routinely in defensive pistol shooting classes.

Of course, no one was attacking me, and I was mentally prepared for shooting--because I was in classes.

An ambush might be a whole lot different.
 
Yes, for sure an ambush would be more than a little surprising.
And would no doubt get that adrenaline really going.
Which is probably the cause for over reaction and all those misses.
It is possible to learn how to jump on the inside and not on the outside, though.
 
I might shout out a warning,,,

I might shout out a warning,,,
I mean who can tell what situation might arise.

But I for danged sure would not practice shouting a warning.

That might cause an involuntary hesitation on my part.

But that's just me.

Aarond

.
 
If a man with a knife is heading into a room in which a loved one is, it won't matter whereto you shoot him in the back or the from or the side or the top of the head from above.
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EXACTLY... The angle of the shot is not relevant IF the shot itself is justified.

The old adage of not shooting someone in the back is Nonsense. If im forced to shoot someone that is standing with their back to me because they are attacking my wife.. Thats the shot i have...thats the shot i'll take.

I may move a bit to attempt to alter angles a little, so as to minimize over penetration issues, but if thats the only angle presented...so be it.
 
It's kind of surprising that target manufacturers haven't come up with tactical targets that represent more kinds of varied views, in addition to the typical frontal ones.
 
a situation either warrants deadly force[ right now] or it doesnt.. If my gun is drawn, I am not really concerned with anything outside of that consideration.
 
Whatever gave you that idea?
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I took my CCW class back in '08. I voted for the right to carry in '03 when it passed here in Missouri. I liked the idea of having the right to get one if I chose to, but wasn't really interested in actually getting one. I had a friend who nagged me like an unhappy wife to do it with him, but I wouldn't budge. I'd been near 40 years without having to use a firearm to defend myself, why would I start now, besides.. I really DON'T want to have to shoot someone.

He persisted to the point that he set up a private class with a LEO that we both knew, for just his father, himself, and me, at a greatly reduced fee. I conceded, initially with no intent of actually carrying.

The LEO that taught the class for us stated that according to Missouri's version of the Castle Law that they had adopted at that time, an individual was required to announce his intent to use deadly force or the act could and would be deemed unjustified and most likely bring criminal charges.

Like I said,
I'm not certain, but that may have changed by now.
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Missouri has changed the rules quite a bit pertaining to CCW license holders since '08, I think most for the better, but again I'm not certain if THAT has changed.
I know that when I paid for Tammy to take hers last Christmas and sat in on it with her, the gentleman teaching the class did not spell that out, nor did I think to ask.
Bottom line is that if I feel the need to I will most certainly do so because that is what I was taught in my CCW class. However circumstances could carry the necessity to do otherwise regardless of what I was taught.

Won't know until I'm in it though I hope I never am.
 
The LEO that taught the class for us stated that according to Missouri's version of the Castle Law that they had adopted at that time, an individual was required to announce his intent to use deadly force or the act could and would be deemed unjustified and most likely bring criminal charges.
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He was wrong.

My CCW instructor helped write the law. [ Edited for correction--he helped frame the shall issue CCW law, and explained the nuances of the defense of justification law. Momentary spasm of brain cells?]


There was nothing to that effect in it, and no appellate rulings that said so.
 
a situation either warrants deadly force[ right now] or it doesnt..
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True, and the only determinant is immediate necessity.

If my gun is drawn, I am not really concerned with anything outside of that consideration.
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Good--and that should be the thought if you are thinking of drawing it, in all but a few states.
 
He was wrong.

My CCW helped write the law. There was nothing to that effect in it, and no appellate rulings that said so.
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Ok, I did say that it seemed silly in my original post.
But bottom line is that if I feel the need to I will most certainly do so because that is what I was taught in my CCW class. However circumstances could carry the necessity to do otherwise regardless of what I was taught.

Edit by staff: See my edit of my post correcting my statement.

Comment on the Castle Doctrine does stand.
 
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I wasn't offended at all, just reiterating what I had said. I believe you when you say that he was wrong, we all are sometimes and perhaps me more than my share! ;)
Still, some situations I think would call for it as other's have posted, some wouldn't. I just hope that I never find myself in either.
 
I'm sure every state has different laws and often these laws change but a very good friend of mine was at home asleep during the day. He works nights at a plywood mill. His wife was at work and his kids in school. 2 ARMED men broke into his house. He woke up and naturally grabbed his gun. He shot the first man in the leg and chest and as the second one turned he shot him in the lower back. The one shot from the front somehow lived but the other died before he made it to the hospital. The judge ruled that the attacker was turning to flee and therefore my friend was charged with a number of charges. He only did 5 years but that's 5 years without seeing his kids everyday. I know some of you are gona think I'm lieing and say all kinds of stuff so go ahead and I hope I never have to say I told you so. Im not speaking on what I think I'm speaking of what I know for fact.
 
I'm sure every state has different laws and often these laws change but a very good friend of mine was at home asleep during the day. He works nights at a plywood mill. His wife was at work and his kids in school. 2 ARMED men broke into his house. He woke up and naturally grabbed his gun. He shot the first man in the leg and chest and as the second one turned he shot him in the lower back. The one shot from the front somehow lived but the other died before he made it to the hospital. The judge ruled that the attacker was turning to flee and therefore my friend was charged with a number of charges. He only did 5 years but that's 5 years without seeing his kids everyday. I know some of you are gona think I'm lieing and say all kinds of stuff so go ahead and I hope I never have to say I told you so. Im not speaking on what I think I'm speaking of what I know for fact.
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Sounds like he needed a better Lawyer. Rule#1 in my book, If involved in an event. Rent the best you can find, And keep your mouth shut.
Think what the prosecution had to prove.
If as you stated the perps started the event as a threat to the home owner.
#1 That the perp was in fact running away.
#2 That the person who shot him knew thats what he was doing and shot him any way.


So he must have opened his mouth and told the cops that on site.
I hope, if it was me. I would have been scared for my life and I cant exactly remember what direction he was facing. trying to discipher what his intention was other than meaning me harm is beyond my ability.( or some other Lawyer advised statement to that effect.)

Using a fire arm to defend your self is in fact a life changing event. Must be treated as such before ever doing it. And treated as such after.
Even if you win, Your life will be changed.
Fair deal in this guys case. Five years for his life??? maybe.
 
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A dead man tells no tale.
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Tell that to a medical examiner.

It depends on the situation of course, but unless the situation is something that you are fully aware of and have no doubts about what is going on or the targets intentions then I would give a warning while still being prepared to fire.

Also I don't buy the theory that you can only process one thing at a time during a stressful situation. People's immediate reactions encompass a number of things that occur simultaneously (run, scream, throw things, draw gun, etc.) I think if humans have the multitasking ability to play guitar and harmonica at the same time then they can be trained to yell "stop" as they draw their weapon and acquire their target.
 
The whole parish was outraged when it happened. The charges were such bullspit it was an embarrassment to hard working people but when the media gets involved things like this can happen. They did a background check on him and he had said a couple unpleasant things on facebook about a member of the community that had just gotten out of jail that was of a different race. So when 2 men broke into his house it was his fault because of a few comments about a drug dealer. This whole matter should have never went to court. But appearantly if your wife and kids aren't home you don't have the right to defend yourself or your property. The D A wasn't reelected but the judge was.
 
They did a background check on him and he had said a couple unpleasant things on facebook about a member of the community that had just gotten out of jail that was of a different race.
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Thats also a rule of mine. Face book is bad juju. I only use it to share dog photos and family vacation photos.
I try to never make any comments on Facebook that in any way could be construed as provocative.
Its like the main spy site for people to find out things about you and make allot of bad opinions.
When I heard my Company was checking employees face book pages to make sure no one was bad mouthing the company. I decided it was a good place to stay away from.
 
Don't underestimate the element of surprise, it could mean the difference between life and death. First punch usually wins the fight
 
If they make a fast escape without threatening me--it's not ideal, but I'll call it a win. Essentially, if there is no threat/harm to me, I'd rather not initiate any violence.
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If they're in your home without your knowledge or invitation, they've ALREADY done violence to you, and demonstrated that there is no boundary they will not violate to obtain what they want. You DO NOT have the luxury of trying nor even contemplating whether you can hold them until the police arrive. If they escape, perhaps it's a win FOR YOU. But may you never meet their next victim(s).

As for warnings, if they are not to my advantage (and they seldom are) I'M not issuing one. If my yelling at someone momentarily distracts them from victimizing someone else while not compromising my situation, that's another matter. But generally, I'm of the opinion that the best "warning" is a perfectly executed Mozambique stroke.

Quit trying to fight fair, folks. Your aggressor already has. You won't get extra points in the next life for it, and a lotta very upset people who you leave behind in THIS life will go to their graves, wishing you'd been just a little more ruthless.

One LAST thing: DON'T TALK TO THE POLICE UNLESS YOUR ATTORNEY IS PRESENT AND OKAY WITH IT!
 
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