The Meatman
New member
LOL...well spoken Master Splinter! Keep the Foot Clan in line! 
To shoot or not to shoot. That is...oh, you get it.
- Thread starter Playboypenguin
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Playboypenguin
Moderator
*giggle* You're funny.
Having plans, being aware, knowing where cover is in a parking garage, etc. make good sense.
However, preconceived, unflexible plans that never seem to fit the situation, based on inexperientially derived fantasies, are what all the bickering seems to be about. Back and forth, back and forth, like prepubscents at recess.
Those who have actually been there indicate that things happen real fast, turn to confusion and caos. Most always.
Seems to me that drawing a weapon when an attack looks imminent, but before it actually begins makes sense. Might not be time to access your weapon, otherwise.
But even that is highly subjective and subject to scrutiny by the court system. But, then again, any SD situation involving a gun is going to be anyway. Draw too fast, it's brandishing. Draw too late--well you get the idea.
Nothin' personal. Just my thoughts on the matter.
However, preconceived, unflexible plans that never seem to fit the situation, based on inexperientially derived fantasies, are what all the bickering seems to be about. Back and forth, back and forth, like prepubscents at recess.
Those who have actually been there indicate that things happen real fast, turn to confusion and caos. Most always.
Seems to me that drawing a weapon when an attack looks imminent, but before it actually begins makes sense. Might not be time to access your weapon, otherwise.
But even that is highly subjective and subject to scrutiny by the court system. But, then again, any SD situation involving a gun is going to be anyway. Draw too fast, it's brandishing. Draw too late--well you get the idea.
Nothin' personal. Just my thoughts on the matter.
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Scattergun Bob
New member
Define a Threat
In the heat of some of our posts I often forget to go back to the basics. It seems that some of the discussion is about the understanding of what is a threat.
My defension of "threat" is fairly basic and easy to understand (read flash identify) and it has nothing to do with: "So if you look or act gnarly around me I will draw! If it turns out Iv'e mis-judged the situation, then I'll apologize"
Rule # 2. Know exactly when I can use my gun.
A predator must have or reasonably appear to have:
the ability to inflict serious bodily harm or death upon me. (He is armed)
the opportunity to inflict serious bodily harm. (distance, body type, position)
his intent indicates that he means to inflict serious bodily harm or death upon me. (mere words are not enough)
When all 3 of these element are in place simultaneously, THIS IS A THREAT STIMULUS!
The response to a threat stimulus ; zero muzzle, flash sight picture, exercise trigger control, deliver a minimum response.
There may be better ways of explaining a Threat, but in my opion this is the minimum required.
"If it turns out Iv'e mis-judged the situation, then I'll apologize" if you focus my attention on you by drawing for no reason, you may not have the chance.
In the heat of some of our posts I often forget to go back to the basics. It seems that some of the discussion is about the understanding of what is a threat.
My defension of "threat" is fairly basic and easy to understand (read flash identify) and it has nothing to do with: "So if you look or act gnarly around me I will draw! If it turns out Iv'e mis-judged the situation, then I'll apologize"
Rule # 2. Know exactly when I can use my gun.
A predator must have or reasonably appear to have:
the ability to inflict serious bodily harm or death upon me. (He is armed)
the opportunity to inflict serious bodily harm. (distance, body type, position)
his intent indicates that he means to inflict serious bodily harm or death upon me. (mere words are not enough)
When all 3 of these element are in place simultaneously, THIS IS A THREAT STIMULUS!
The response to a threat stimulus ; zero muzzle, flash sight picture, exercise trigger control, deliver a minimum response.
There may be better ways of explaining a Threat, but in my opion this is the minimum required.
"If it turns out Iv'e mis-judged the situation, then I'll apologize" if you focus my attention on you by drawing for no reason, you may not have the chance.
Absolutely right. The perfect scenario is where no one gets hurt, killed, or robbed, etc. Retreating buys you TIME - very important! Some states MANDATE that you retreat if possible.
If I can retreat with my weapon, take cover, and not have to engage - I've won the fight.
If retreating buys me a couple of seconds to get my gun out and properly aimed to I can get off stopping shots - I've won the fight.
If I am alert and sense trouble starting and I get the heck out of Dodge without having to engage - I've won the fight.
We invest in firearms, training and range time so, if we can't retreat, we can meet the threat successfully.
I used to ride a Honda Goldwing touring bike and every year the Harley crowd would have their annual rally/kegger party here in one of the Northern California towns. Harley riders vary from the Christian M/C club (some are priests and ministers) to the Hells Angels. But they don't really care for "rice burners". But gnarly, tough, suspicious they can be (plus many are ex-cons). Fortunately I have a sense of humor and knowing Sonny Barger personally helped. Drawing a gun on some of these guys is a good way to find out what it tastes like.
You'd be a lot of fun there.
I imagine you'd be about as confused as a baby in a topless bar. There are parts of East San Jose or L.A. where if you draw, it will only escalate the situation if you aren't Hispanic yourself. The guy may back away, but four, six or nine others may start shouting at you in angry tones.
It is one thing to "prepare", by discretely withdrawing the gun and having it alongside your leg because the three guys appear to be following you. Or to covertly transfer it to a jacket pocket as you approach a stairwell or elevator.
But it's inappropriate to draw and point a weapon unless you know there is an actual threat.
jackmcmanus21
New member
I'm from the school of "better to be safe than sorry". If I feel there is a threat, I'm not going to hesitate to take my firearm out. Remember it is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission, and I don't want to end up in the ground because I was the nice guy giving the benefit of the doubt.
Scattergun Bob
New member
BillCA
Other than the old Alam Rock Cafe and over priced Reeds Gun shop, why in the world would you what to travel in "that part" of East San Jose?
Other than the old Alam Rock Cafe and over priced Reeds Gun shop, why in the world would you what to travel in "that part" of East San Jose?
Ok, so I'm going to stand there trying to analyze the BG's ability, opportunity, and intent??? Give me a break!! I'll be dead by that time!! At my age with bad knees, retreat is not an option.
If you can't recognize gnarly behavior, or sense a real threat, then you have no business owning a firearm for SD.
BG's rely on your lack of training, hesitancy, and vulnerability!!
If you can't recognize gnarly behavior, or sense a real threat, then you have no business owning a firearm for SD.
BG's rely on your lack of training, hesitancy, and vulnerability!!
Scattergun Bob
New member
Avenger11
I suggest that it takes less time to recognize a threat using this classic method, than you can trying your "method", or rather NO METHOD.
"So if you look or act gnarly around me I will draw"! these are your words, and they do not justify drawing in my state. I really don't care if you like it, it simply is what it is.
Good Luck & Be Safe
I suggest that it takes less time to recognize a threat using this classic method, than you can trying your "method", or rather NO METHOD.
"So if you look or act gnarly around me I will draw"! these are your words, and they do not justify drawing in my state. I really don't care if you like it, it simply is what it is.
Good Luck & Be Safe
The acronym is MMO - Means, Motive, Opportunity. It's much easier that you'd guess.
If a person has a weapon or clenches his hands into fists, he has the means by which to commit an assault upon your person.
Motive can be established explicitly through threats, words or actions. Implicitly it can be established through actions, such as one or more persons following, chasing, or simply approaching in a 'rude, angry or threatening manner'.
Opportunity - if they're there and within useful striking distance of any weapons they have, they have the opportunity.
So, yes, you can calculate the threat using MMO and you probably do it on your own. I'd not draw on some cretin with a baseball bat who is yelling threats at me from across a 4-lane divided highway. Nor should you.
If I'm walking to my car in a parking garage and notice a pair of scuzzy types that appear to be following or looking to intercept, withdrawing my sidearm and keeping a low profile might be warranted. Especially if they continue after I abruptly change course or backtrack.
It's amazing how vehemently some people will defend their own ignorance -- and the last sentence is truly ... ironic ... in view of the first one.
Lack of training is indeed a killer. So is hesitancy, even more so. But knowing the rules of engagement does not cause hesitancy. Rather, knowing the rules enables you to act swiftly and decisively when the moment of truth arrives.
If you've had the training, analyzing a situation as it unfolds isn't a complex hairy deal. It's just part of understanding what is going on and making smart plans to deal with it.
If you haven't had the training, the basic concepts sound so complex that you are certain it's impossible to understand anything at all, and are reduced to making choices based upon nothing more than ignorant guesses and feelings.
Too bad!
pax
Too bad how many soldiers have been killed, because some bureaucrat, thousands of miles away from the action, dictated rules of engagement that completely stripped them of their ability to act on instinct and training to protect themselves. That is the epitome of ignorance!
I'm officially in the elderly category, so I guess I'm slow by your definition and should just leave SD to the younger folks. Most training programs don't address our issues because we are incapable of training or too dense to recognize a threat.
Common sense is a trait you acquire with life experience, not thru some training class or cruising web sites.
I'm confident in my abilities to know when a theat is real and accept responsibility for my actions.
I'm officially in the elderly category, so I guess I'm slow by your definition and should just leave SD to the younger folks. Most training programs don't address our issues because we are incapable of training or too dense to recognize a threat.
Common sense is a trait you acquire with life experience, not thru some training class or cruising web sites.
I'm confident in my abilities to know when a theat is real and accept responsibility for my actions.
Scattergun Bob
New member
Avenger11
You said "I'm officially in the elderly category, so I guess I'm slow by your definition and should just leave SD to the younger folks. Most training programs don't address our issues because we are incapable of training or too dense to recognize a threat."
Louie, Clint, Mas, Chuck and myself are all well past 60, all of us have a code of conduct and all of us teach it. Quit whining and understand that hardheadedness is often misdiagnosed as "old man's" disease. Understand that the very rules of engagement that you are disputing help keep all of us safe.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
Good Luck & Be Safe
You said "I'm officially in the elderly category, so I guess I'm slow by your definition and should just leave SD to the younger folks. Most training programs don't address our issues because we are incapable of training or too dense to recognize a threat."
Louie, Clint, Mas, Chuck and myself are all well past 60, all of us have a code of conduct and all of us teach it. Quit whining and understand that hardheadedness is often misdiagnosed as "old man's" disease. Understand that the very rules of engagement that you are disputing help keep all of us safe.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
Good Luck & Be Safe
The only rules of engagement that I dispute are the ones that require that no action be taken until the threat has advanced beyond my ability to deal with it!
I'm OK with ageeing to disagree, but when I've been labeled ignorant by a staff member here, then I have a problem.
I'm OK with ageeing to disagree, but when I've been labeled ignorant by a staff member here, then I have a problem.
Scattergun Bob
New member
Avenger11
I AM NOT suggesting that you allow the enemy any more advantage than necessary. I totally agree that once a threat exists, take aggressive / savage action and SOLVE THE PROBLEM. I am only suggesting that gnarly doesn't meet my standard to draw and zero my weapon.
Good Luck & Be Safe
I AM NOT suggesting that you allow the enemy any more advantage than necessary. I totally agree that once a threat exists, take aggressive / savage action and SOLVE THE PROBLEM. I am only suggesting that gnarly doesn't meet my standard to draw and zero my weapon.
Good Luck & Be Safe