to seal or not to seal

A .452" bullet has a radius of .266, for an area of .160, X 130 psi = holding against 20.8 lbs of force trying to push it out, unsuccessfully in this case.

That was for a different subject in another thread I just posted it because ithput sealant, 0 psi remained in the case and if air can get out, things can get in.

That also reminds me of an engineer that always liked to say “you can’t seal water out, only in.”

There are a number of ways to measure neck tension, seating further would be the easiest though.
 
if air can get out, things can get in.
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And If I was curious about things getting in and or out I would place a vacuum on a jug filled with water and my reloads, after placing a vacuum on the jug I would check for tiny bottles.

And if I dropped my cell phone in the toilet or if for some reason I got my cell hone wet I would place the phone in an empty jug, seal the jug and then place a vacuum on the container. The pucker power of a vacuum will get rid the moisture.

If the cell phone is as big as my shoe I will have to consider it is an old phone with vacuum tubes.

F. Guffey
 
It needs to be remembered that both priming pellets and powder are plastic. The priming compound is a mixture of a plastic subtance and explosive material, powder itself is a nitocellulose based plastic that has nitroglycerin and some other materials added in. Neither of these should be harmed by humidity when stuffed into a sealed container and stored in a sealed container in a relatively dry enviroment.

Alliant has powder stored for test and calibration purposes that has been underwater for decades. they store the literal powder itself in a tank full of water, not cans, not jars, loose powder, and sitting in water for years has not caused the stuff to deteriorate.

I believe that this whole thread is loaded with posts that are seriously overthinking the issue. History and experience tells us that ammo stored in nearly any crazy location from greenland to cairo to venezuala has survived for decades and retained factory new performance. handloads with modern components stored in a rubber sealed military ammo can will almost certainly remain functional for nearly half a century. The paper bag of unique that my dad bought thirty years before I destroyed it seemed to be without any sort of deterioration.
 
vacuum tubes will not be harmed by vacuum.
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Vacuum tubes in a cell phone:eek::rolleyes: I have an old military shipping container that is large enough for my shoes, digging it out could take years,

The smaller containers work better than packing the phone in rice.

F. Guffey
 
History and experience tells us that ammo stored in nearly any crazy location from greenland to cairo to venezuala has survived for decades and retained factory new performance.
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Not really, based on my experience: I pulled bullets from 450 257 Weatherby and 7 Remington Mags that were loaded in 1971 and 1972, 85% of the loaded ammo would have fired, the other 15% had corrosion between the bullet and neck of the case or the powder failed and started to cake. I do not care about the problem with the neck and bullet, it could be electrolysis, the cases could have been cleaned with an acid, something in the neck could have turned to an acid. In the 45+ years there was an exchange of metal as in metal migrating from one metal to another.

I do not load that far ahead, again, if I was going to store loaded ammo I would heat an ammo can, stack the loaded ammo in the can and then close the lid.

F. Guffey
 
When my house burned, my ammo was exposed to water, steam, and smoke. Not flame.
Some of it was usable with an occasional dud. Some had such high percentage of duds as to be useless except to pull to salvage bullets and brass. Only USGI with asphaltum bullet seal and crimped Primers was 100%.
S&B with the pretty red rings on bullet and primer was disappointing. That stuff was not an effective sealant.
Aluminum Blazer was dangerous with split and burnt through cases. I quit attempting to shoot that crap very quickly.
 
guffy, I have some questions. First, were they all the same lot, do you think? They were all the same maker, I think Norma, weatherby held it only to themselves. That doesn't account for the 7, though. Do you think that the weatherby, specifically, was defective, with powder that deteriorated? The idea of electrical deterioration through some contamination is reasonable, dirty or contaminated metals joined together can migrate together. if that corrosion was green, it seems pretty certain that the problem was some sort of metal salts or an acidic contamination. Since the stuff is compressed together with no gaps in some microscopic contact points, some form of vacuum welding may have contributed? That should not really have caused corrosion.

I didn't mean to say that all ammo will last forever, but we have seen military ammo that remained completely viable. In the case of failures, I believe, from the reports, that most of them are primers, that is the one essential thing that can most easily ruin a load. A solid primer should still light up a portion of weakened powder.

Ammo is like any organic compound, specifically the powder, it can't last forever, and copper based metals corrode fairly easily. Most of it, especially if the standard of manufacturing and storage are high, you should get long storage life out of.

I personally agree with light vacuum storage, or nitrogen storage if possible. Adding a small piece of dry ice to the can before absolutely sealing it would also fill it with inert gas.

Jim, was it the heat? If the house burned and high temperature smoke and steam surrounded the cartridges for an hour or so, reaching maybe 200 to 300degrees but no actual flame, I suspect that both primer and powder were started on the path of absolute ruin. I don't think that the wetness had a strong effect, but maybe I'm wrong.

Blazer maybe shouldn't even exist. Aluminum isn't appropriate for the sudden stretch and big boom of firing.it's brittle and inflexible. It just isn't right.
 
Mr. Morris, I wish you lived down the road from me! I do the same sorts of things, I don't take the 'Stories' as fact.
I spent the entire day making clamps for the compression Dyno so I could accurately gauge what it ACTUALLY took to move a bullet in the case neck, and see if I could chart the retention of the bullet when the case neck size changed.
The results were an eye opener, a circle is an amazing thing, very small changes produced BIG results!

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I can't see sealing as a huge issue IF the ammo is stored in a reasonable environment.
Cool & dry is recommended, but large temp swings can cause issues even if the ammo doesn't get wet.

Im with a couple others, I don't store for 30 or 60 years, I frequently try different things, so stockpiling ammo doesn't work for me. I've set up my presses/die sets so I can efficiently choose a caliber and quickly make rounds, taking the need for stockpiles moot.
If I have 500-1,000 rounds around here at any given time it would suprises me...
If I have a lot of ammo on hand, then the kids show up and want to shoot it up!
I don't mind the kids shooting, they keep things pretty safe, but they don't let me know they are coming so I can punch out some blasting ammo, they shoot up my accuracy rounds! :(

The intended purpose for sealer should be apparent, the military has no idea where the troops are taking that ammo... Desert, Jungle, Artic Circle, some tiny damp saltwater island I the middle of nowhere...
I'm pretty confident my ammo isn't going out of the county, and I'm pretty confident it's not going to lay in a puddle until some soldier or Marine comes along to resupply...
 
guffy, I have some questions. First, were they all the same lot, do you think? They were all the same maker,
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A friend ask me to clean out his shop, our combined age was 165 years. he was 90. He was a professor with the University of Texas system, master machinist, master welder and gun smith. For most of his life he was a shooter, reloader, builder of rifles and collector. The ammo he gave me was loaded by him. His partner was another professor/gun smith, I purchased his shop after he died.

The 257 Weatherby was built by him and it was going to his son, I could say 'problem; because he was having the rifle stocked and blued, do not know how the smith doing the work claimed he stuck a jag in the barrel. It was one of those things I did not want to get involved with but I got the rifle and started in on it. Along with the jag there was a bullet and after the bullet I found a broken drill bit and that screwed the barrel. Anyhow, the rifle and ammo was going to the son and I discouraged 'The Doc.' from passing the ammo to his son. Most of the powder in the cases was good, some of the necks would not hold a bullet.

I have ammo cans, I have two large nitrogen bottles for A/C work. again, I do not load that far ahead.

F. Guffey
 
Jim, was it the heat? If the house burned and high temperature smoke and steam surrounded the cartridges for an hour or so, reaching maybe 200 to 300degrees but no actual flame, I suspect that both primer and powder were started on the path of absolute ruin. I don't think that the wetness had a strong effect, but maybe I'm wrong.

Blazer maybe shouldn't even exist. Aluminum isn't appropriate for the sudden stretch and big boom of firing.it's brittle and inflexible. It just isn't right.
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Bullets pulled from high misfire (>10%) lots uncovered numerous rounds with soggy powder, worst in the S&B. No doubt of water penetration.

I don't know what attacked the Blazer. Most of it was in an unopened case, boxes in a heavy carton. It looked ok but when fired, I noticed flash out the ejection port and picked up split cases. One had burnt through so badly that the scorch mark was apparent in the chamber. I quit attempting to get use out of that stuff right away.
 
I can't see sealing as a huge issue IF the ammo is stored in a reasonable environment.
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That was my point, if you are going to keep the stuff in a hostile environment, what is the outside of the case going to look like?

Might as well keep the components separated then assemble them as needed. Than have a box of these, even if they are perfect on the inside.

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jim, that is just plain weird, and i feel certain that it wasn't just from being hosed down, dont you?

our military would reject anything that wasnt capable of bing totally submerged, it is/has been a common thing in some theaters. duck hunters would go nuts if they ruined a box of $3 10 gauge rounds dropping them into a muddy lake. i'd go back to using a slingshot if i thought that my rounds could be ruined by a day in a flooded basement.

my father in law had a box of .22 lr go through laundry. he chastised his wife and shot the stuff later. through the dryer? dont know if id do that.
 
morris, it would surprise me if those rounds all fired without case failures, especially if it was an oversized military chamber and undersized rounds.
 
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