To Run or Hide?

L

LightningLink

New member
While reading the thread regarding 'Guns are still banned in churches ...', Long Path's final statement caught my eye:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>People, I want you all to think about that. Even if you die, would you rather the entry wound be in the front, or through the back of your head as you huddle?[/quote]
Now, his particular message (I think) was regarding rushing the gunman while he reloaded. But I want to twist it a little for the above question: Should you run or hide during a situation like that?

Back when Columbine happened, I asked my wife, "Would we teach our kids to run like hell or hide?" She seemed to think hiding was better, that running would make you a target. But I thought most of the victims were hiding. Also, running might make you a target, but at least it's a moving target. Your average crazed gunman is not a sharp shooter.

I also think back to those pictures and films during the Holocaust, where people kindly kneeled in front of an open trench and patiently awaited their turn to be shot. I think I would rather die making one last dash for freedom, then to just wait for it to happen.

So, what's your arguments for running or hiding?

PS: I know the obvious answer for us is to return fire, but that doesn't apply for kids in school.

Thanks,
LL
 
I think it would depend on the gunman and the situation.

If the gunman had a shotgun and I had adequate cover, I'd be hesitant to move till he had to reload.

If the gunman had a rifle or handgun, I'd be more inclined to run away.

What to tell children? I'm not sure. If the child can tell the differnece, I'd try to tell him the above. If the child is to young, I'd think I'd take my chances with running.

Just me opinion though.
 
A rush with improvised clubs would be a better option than some others (hiding is a poor choice, helps murderes who can't shoot well at moving targets). However, this is one difference between the US and Russia (in theory) -- no guarantee of disarmed victims for anyone, again, in theory. I know one man who always made a point of being armed at church functions. Their church and others of that denomination had been attacked in the past and so, legal or not, he has been standing guard for years. Legal now, BTW, but had not always been. If it saves just one life, right?

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Cornered Rat
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I would think that once gunfire broke out, it would be time to split.

Back when robberies/murders at the stop-and-robs was just getting started, I told my boys that if they were ever in the store and a robbery went down to just be cool and let the guy(s) take the bucks. However, if the BGs started herding people in the back, GET OUT, even if it meant going through the windows. That philosophy still holds to this day.

I have told my grandkids the same things.

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If you can't fight City Hall, at least defecate on the steps.
 
I know that hindsight is always 20/20 but I've been wondering about this ever since Columbine happened. A large group of students, some of them "jocks", were trapped in the library. They heard the shooting coming closer to them. Why didn't some of them grab some library books and prepare to throw them at the gunmen when they came through the door? Maybe it would have worked and maybe not. We know for a fact that hiding under the tables didn't work.

I had a long talk with my son about this. He is a junior in High School. We both agreed that trying to be the "Lone Hero" is not the smart thing to do. We also agreed that in the Columbine library situation, the kids had nothing to lose and everything to gain by standing together and fighting back.

This is not a criticism of the kids at Columbine. If I had been there I might have done the same thing they did. I just think we need to do a better job of teaching our kids to stand up and fight when they have no other choice.
 
I think that most of those kids, never really believing they'd find themselves in such a situation, probably never thought through what they'd do. In such a situation, we tend to react, rather than act. Hard to plan and think clearly when we're scared s---less!! The fact that there were two of them makes it more difficult also. Just one guy would've been easier to gang up on.

I think it was that Oregon shooting where that wrestler, Jacob I think his name was, knew the BG was in the process of reloading, got fed up with being "victimized," and tackled the guy and held him despite getting wounded.

The sad thing is, a lot of kids have to make these kinds of decisions these days. Every situation is different, but I do think it's good to let kids know what's going on, and discuss with them possible responses without necessarily telling them there's only one appropriate course of action. My kids are only 3 and 7 right now; I still haven't decided how I'm going to handle it with them.

Like Bob mentioned, every situation is different. Sometimes, it's better to stay put or go get help. There may be times, like in that Oregon case, where you have a kid or two whose anger overrules their fear, and they do something about it. I don't think I'd tell my kids to try and be heroes; on the other hand, if they ever did something heroic like that, I'd sure as heck be proud of em.
 
do you put youself in the fate path of the shooter and wait for him to find you? MAybe he won't find you but it's his turn...
or do you help yourself by taking your fate in your own hands and acting?

They say God helps those who help themselves...

the wolf attacks, the rabbit freezes, and the coyote slinks away

dZ
 
This really makes me wonder. I could see hiding if I had a very secure, undetectable palce, but in almost any other circumstance, I'd beat feet. Distance is your friend. I can't feature sitting and waiting. Is it possible that people have been so brainwashed by TV that they think someone with a gun is invincible, that they can't escape?? Are they so ignorant of firearms that they don't see reloading as an excellent opportunity to leave?? Quickly!!
Geez- M2
 
First i pretend im dead and as he walks by to
select another victim I pull out my 45 and cap him from behind.

If i dont have a gun, i run for dear life pushing people out of my way.
 
I just read the thread regarding the “ground rules” for TFL and I am not sure if this thread is out of bounds or not. However, it strikes close to home so I am going to post a response anyway.

In my position as a volunteer fire chief, and as a public school teacher, I have had occasion to read several school disaster plans. I can tell you that the leading authorities do indeed teach us (teachers) that the appropriate action to take (in the event of a shooting) is to get down and stay put. Running, according to the experts, makes one a target.

These same experts also tell me that in the event of a hazardous materials incident the appropriate action is to evacuate the building and move the kids to a safe location. As a hazardous materials trainer I teach the opposite. I tell fire officers that as Incident Commanders the first thing to consider is the viability of sheltering in place. My point is this; I know that one can not depend entirely upon a book of regulations kept on file in the central office to address every situation appropriately.

The ability to think clearly in the face of adversity is the first element required in dealing with an emergency. A set of protocols or operating procedures is fine, but they are awful hard to implement if the person assuming the role of “leader” (like a teacher or administrator) goes into the “orbit mode”. Fact is, kids will look to their teachers in emergencies. If the teacher looses their span of control, the situation will deteriorate rapidly.

I am also a former LEO. As such, I can think of nothing more horrific than having an armed gunman mount an assault on my students or me while I cowered helplessly in a corner. I am not a hero, nor am I an "expert". On the other hand, I am not a coward, nor am I stupid. Obviously, there are no "pat" answers. I can only do my best, anything less is not acceptable. Perhaps this is not very confidence inspiring for those of you who entrust your kids to folks like me.
 
My wife and I just had this discussion. She nodded and said that she has always known that, if the balloon went up in my vicinity, I might risk death. (One of my favorite quotes: "I would not love thee so much, loved I not honor more") She said that she didn't want to be a widow raising a 1 year-old daughter by herself. I explained that while I would of course do everything in my power to keep that from happening, I would not be able to live with myself if my technique for living was to hide and pray that his next victim was another. Especially if that other was a child!

Ankeny: Your school's disaster preparedness manual gives the party line on how to act. After all, it could hardly dictate that you be a hero, right? Lawsuits are made of such things, and those without the inclination to act will freeze, anyway. But consider that the technique they describe works only by assuming that he'll move on, and shoot another. While this is very possibly an erroneous assumption, it glosses over they fact that they're telling you to sacrifice other children for your own life!!

When I was a bus driver for the local school district a few years ago, they gave us a similar doctrine, but most of us knew that death was preferable to a life in which you had offered up your charge's lives for your own. Our director of Transportation, a retired Marine Major, said once to we assembled 120 drivers: "The Handbook says that in such an emergency, you will get the children to get down on th deck, and to do so yourself, and not to move. Should such an emergency arise, of course, I know you will do what you need to, to keep the children safe. That is our first and our last priority."
*****

If I can run and take EVERY LAST CHILD with me, then I'd be a fool not to, assuming I was unarmed. NexusLexus misread your initial post-- it was a question of what to do when you are unarmed, or what to tell your unarmed children. Telling your kid to play dead when there is no way out is not such a bad idea, NexLex. Many have survived that way through many massacres.

The wrestler in OR represented exactly the kind of spirit I wish we could see throughout our nation. I don't expect children to do the job of adults, but I do expect them to think. We train them to stop, drop, and roll when on fire. We train them to never answer the door to a stranger. Why not train them to run like a striped-a$$ed babboon when a mugger, murderer, or generally BAD person approaches?

If there's an exit, RUN. If there's no good exit but there's cover and/or concealment, HIDE. If there's no good exit, no cover or concealment, but there's space to run around in random directions, maybe do that. If there's none of the above available, then play possum. If the child is a boy over 15, you may wish to discuss what becoming a man entails.

(Yes, that sounds really, REALLY sexist, but, feminist though I am, I still see a place for Manhood.)
 
All,

Ankeny - former LEO, not stupid, not a coward.

Why can we not arm such teachers to protect our kids?
 
Longpath, There comes a time in every mans life he must decide if he will be a fighter or a runner. Both have positive attributes. I hope to instill one of the above in my child due the end of Jan. If you've read some of my posts you probable know which one. That time comes at different ages for different kids, I think we all begin as runners, those first few tussles around age 8 or 10 usually begin to show the fighter coming out. I think about age 15 or 16 it becomes real clear what you will be. But I won't teach my child to hide and wait. I'm going to say something that probably will draw fire, but it's how I feel. "Death without fighting for life is suicide." Take it as you please. But for me it's fight or flight. Don't take a stupid chance unless it's all you have. I don't know if I've answered the question here or not, what I truly hope for is that by the time my child has reached school age, these shootings will have stopped, because the teachers are armed. It amazes me that our government doesn't adopt the Swiss and Israeli style of dealing with this situation, but my feeling for their reason for not doing it is not permissable to print here anymore. I'm going to insure my child gets a lot of common sense things to work out, so if the time arises they will act accordingly. I think in the enviroment we live in, it's all we can hope for.

" A life given in defense of another, continues on in all things the defended life achieves" read this somewhere, not mine, but to me it strikes a nerve.




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Live Free or Die Trying,

Steve Moody
 
I think the concept depends on so many variables it's difficult to come up with one answer for your kids. If it's all over in a minute and a half, the initial panic reaction should serve well, everybody beatin' feet in opposite directions, screaming. But that's not the situation which so horrifies us all, instead we get cold and methodical, take your time, stalking your next victim and then really enjoying each murder. These guys are absolute animals.

The episode at Luby's in Killeen, TX a few years back is a great example. Lots of people hid under tables, etc, but it was only the ones who squeezed out a window that ended up saving the day for many. The killer spent over 20 minutes picking out his victims one at a time, walking around fearlessly, reloading his 2 guns several times. No CCL, don'cha see, cuz Guv Ann Richards refused to allow it to be considered, so he was confident he had the only gun in the place.

Someone who escaped (ran away) made it to a nearby building and hysterically began screaming for a phone to call 911, and the guy she was screaming at was an off-duty LEO who promptly and courageously (stupidly by the standards of recent LE responses to similar incidents) entered the building with his off-duty arm. Eventually he succeeded in winging the creep who responded by cooperatively capping himself. By the time the first on-duty officer arrived it was all over.

I'd say as far as teaching your kids what to do (my last one graduated two years ago, as long as the nutbars leave colleges alone he'll be OK) my vote would be to go with run away if at all possible. At Columbine it would have been possible for a whole bunch of kids, but just that one boy bailed from a window as far as I heard, and he'd already been shot.

All in all, I think schools are teaching the wrong plan from what is said here.

It's still interesting to me the difference between that officer's response and the responses of the armed guard at Columbine and the first on-duty LEO that arrived. As well as every other recent incident, which seem to have the LEOs massing out front behind their cars while killers roam free inside the building for hours. Has attitude and training changed that much in the past 10 years?
 
After Columbine, I had a long talk with my son concerning what actions he should take in a similar situation. My son is 15 and is very familiar with firearms. We decided that if escape is possible, then escape with all haste. However, if escape isn't possible, then take out the gunman with extreme prejudice using whatever was at hand. We discussed mobilizing others in a joint assault while stressing that others may not be capable of responding. These are things that a child should not have to face. I hope and pray that my son will never face a situation such as this, but if he does, I have every confidence that he will do it right.

[This message has been edited by OB-1 (edited September 19, 1999).]
 
In the Port Arthur shooting at the Broad Arrow Cafe, the patrons obliginally sat there (like Lubys) and were slaughtered. :(
At a recent shooting at a Campus Restuarant in Victoria(?) the patrons rushed the guy with the rifle & detained him 'till the Police arrived ! :)
Every situation calls for a different plan but isn't that how heros are made ?
One day you're an ordinary person who by chance is involved in an extraordinary event...
In a split second the choice is made to hide/run or fight back.
I'd personally say run like hell but if that wasn't an option, I'd prefer to give it my best attempt at overpowering the would be assailant.
Anyone else here feel "funny" inside whilst trying to answer this one ?



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"The Gun from Down Under !"
http://www.para1911fanclub.w3.to/
Alternate E-mail
hs2k@email.com
 
HS remember the woman and her 2 daughters who ran ? actually drove away but stopped to talk to this nice man who then murdered them.
I know a bloke who was there with his wife and others in a tour group. Aparraently they locked the doors and stayed where they were.
Running outside not knowing where the shooter was may have been the wrong thing to do at that time.
A lot of people did get shot running away.
If I was in a cafeteria and I heard gunshots and looked around seeing peoples heads blown to bits I wouldn't know what to do
I'd like to think I'd run but when something that unexpected happens IU wouldn't know. We aren't talking about the SAS here, these are average people. Remember he had 30 shot mags with him, he just walked from table to table and shot at close range.
There was a problem with locked doors and survivorswanted an investigation but none was carried out
 
HS,
No offense, sir, I am not familiar with the shootings in Australia. However, the patrons at Luby's, in Killeen, TX, did not sit obligingly and wait their turn to be shot.

Some cowered. Some tried to escape. Some tried to stop the gunman but, as individuals, met with death.

I strongly recommend you do not state your "obligingly" opinion to Texas State Representative Suzanne Gratia Hupp. Her Dad rushed the gunman but was shot. Her Mother rushed to his aid, saw he was dead, and chose to die with her husband, at the hands of her husband's murderer, rather than attempt belated and futile escape.

There were heroes at Killeen who died trying to save their fellow man. However, because "civilized" people don't think about such things beforehand, their efforts were as individuals (rather than coordinated). Therefore, they were shot and killed one by one.

The fault lies with our federal government who does not understand the phrase, "...shall not be infringed."

That is why I damn these "honorable men" (in Mark Anthony's sense of the word). That is part of the reason I say our entire government needs a housecleaning from top to bottom. Or we in America (and I use that term with total disregard for those who oppose its use in this manner), or we in America will become "subjects" to the whim of tyrants - such as those in the previous United Kingdom and elsewhere.

I am angry, sir, not at you but at the entire situation where my fellow citizens have become afraid to contradict those selected by our leaders to be our leaders. Where they have become afraid to vote for what is Constitutional for fear of even greater Constitutional losses.

Those who vote for Constitutional losses will have little to bemoan when they get that for which they have compromised.
 
Dennis, no offence taken !
I italiced(?) the word obliginally as a form of wording to put forth the concept of sitting/cowering/ducking under a table, staying in place with no response to what was going on - As in "sitting ducks" :(
(Doe's this make sense in written form - It's hard to give the right meaning to what I mean)
I know some people tried their best, some made it & some didn't... :(
Why is it that in the many recent shootings, NO CCW holder has been available ?
If you believe HCI, guns are aplenty in private hands & thus there is the "Catch 22"!
If the're that prevelant(guns), why aren't more people wasting bad guys ?
You all know the answer of course as the shootings occur in gun free areas :(
Maybe HCI & the Govt. could be sued for making killing zones through stupid law making ? :D
Hell, it works for the "other" side don't it?
Dumb @ssed Law suits that is ! ;)
Hopefully next time some jerk off tries another "claim to fame" shooting, a well trained & Legal CCW holder will waste their butt!.....
Full Media coverage wouldn't hurt either ! :D

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"The Gun from Down Under !"
http://www.para1911fanclub.w3.to/
Alternate E-mail
hs2k@email.com



[This message has been edited by HS (edited September 20, 1999).]
 
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