To foul, or not too foul; that is the question

[jmr40]

I change my oil and I clean my barrels. Less often than some, more often than others. I'm convinced a 10,000 mile or 6 month OCI is just fine. Been doing it for 20-25 years and have a combined 700,000 miles sitting on the driveway. None of them have ever had a drop of oil added between oil changes. Never had a single issue.

I tend to give my rifle barrels a thorough scrubbing about once/year to get down to bare metal. But I'm primarily a hunter who enjoys getting to the range and shooting as much as I can. But between several rifles none are fired more than a few hundred rounds in a year. Some only a few dozen rounds. If I were more of a target shooter I'd do it more often.

When hunting season gets closer I'll give them all a good scrubbing, then get them all to the range to confirm zero and put a few fouling shots through them. I don't clean them unless the bore gets wet or debris gets in a barrel. But that is just a quick patch or bore snake.

I tend to shoot the majority of the rounds through them in winter and early spring before it gets hot here.

 

[DaleA]

I've mentioned this before...

In my youth and young adult hood I shot on a couple of teams of smallbore shooters (saying 'smallbore' is soooooooo much cooler than saying .22) and we shot from September to May, maybe a 100-200 rounds a week and cleaned the guns when we put them away in May. These were expensive target rifles.

Just sayin'.

 

[tangolima]

How so? Check sights at the start of hunting season and not clean to hunt?





I have. I was talking to that SWATcop today. If I see him this weekend, I will confirm.

I don't hunt but I know people who do. They clean, foul the bore, check zero (cold bore) and go hunt. If they have to clean the bore again (say they got wet in rain) they may repeat the process.

Ok now I have heard of one guy who zeros clean bore. He cleans after each shot? Perhaps he got a premium barrel that shoots the same poi clean or fouled.

-TL

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[Pumpkin]

My father bought a rough looking Stevens 87 from a farmer that had it advertised in the local paper, remember those?
The stock sorely needed refinishing and it was covered with surface rust. I had it re-blued and drilled and tapped for his birthday while my pop re-finished the stock. The gunsmith recommended a matt finish due to pitting on the outside but amazingly, the bore was pristine, at least to the naked eye.
Did all the lead and lube protect it all those years?
It was old, no SN, no groves for scope rings either.
And finally, when my dad went to look at it, it sitting where it lived, in the corner of the old farmer’s garage.
Simpler times……

 

[stagpanther]

I think for average demands shooting--like hunting non-lethal game at 200/300 yards on in or casual plinking at the range--leaving a bore fouled until things go wonky is fine. Not my cup of tea, but it works fine for most shooters as far as I can tell.

If, on the other hand, what you do puts a premium on accuracy and consistency both being optimized for every shot at every range--that requires a different set of demands and awareness of what is going to happen with each shot IMO. So many variables come into that equation it is hard to generalize and the process used will likely differ depending on circumstances, range, weapon and ammo types etc. I'm just a home hobbyist, so I don't know what long range snipers or match shooters do--but I haven't heard of any that operate in high-demand situations that simply foul and forget. Not saying it doesn't happen, I just haven't heard or read about it.

From my point of view the key is predictable consistency--I'm not talking about just consistency of the ammo--but knowing what your particular bore and ammo is going to do from one shot to the next.

 

[tangolima]

I think for average demands shooting--like hunting non-lethal game at 200/300 yards on in or casual plinking at the range--leaving a bore fouled until things go wonky is fine. Not my cup of tea, but it works fine for most shooters as far as I can tell.



If, on the other hand, what you do puts a premium on accuracy and consistency both being optimized for every shot at every range--that requires a different set of demands and awareness of what is going to happen with each shot IMO. So many variables come into that equation it is hard to generalize and the process used will likely differ depending on circumstances, range, weapon and ammo types etc. I'm just a home hobbyist, so I don't know what long range snipers or match shooters do--but I haven't heard of any that operate in high-demand situations that simply foul and forget. Not saying it doesn't happen, I just haven't heard or read about it.



From my point of view the key is predictable consistency--I'm not talking about just consistency of the ammo--but knowing what your particular bore and ammo is going to do from one shot to the next.

There are definitely shooters who follow your approach. Bench rest shooters, for instance, clean the bore every 20 rounds or so, to have the best consistency. There are a lot more who choose to clean after each use just because. We all do what's best for ourselves. Nothing wrong.

-TL

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[stagpanther]

I just saw a video online where an older and venerable firearms expert insists that the notion of cleaning bores frequently is based upon lies and some kind of conspiracy. Could be, but I've seen too much evidence in my shooting experience that indicates that for me I get better results when I keep a clean bore. I probably pull barrels and commitment them to my growing spare tire iron collection sooner than the average shooter does. Does that mean cleaning them "too much" possibly prematurely wears the bore? Could be, but that needs to be balanced by the shooter's needs for accurate, predictable shots. The hunter that simply lets his bore go and continue to foul might not find out it's "times up" for a good bore cleaning until that game gets gut shot and runs off. By the time I get my hands on these kinds of guns the shots could be randomly spraying by a foot or more at 100 yards.

 

[tangolima]

I don't believe cleaning wears out barrel any faster than firing, especially if you let chemicals in the solvent do the work.

I have met shooter's who would jettison a barrel when reach certain round count. Some ritually clean after each firing session, and some don't. They definitely keep log of the round count. They also obssess with and fear of "carbon ring", which I started a thread here.

-TL

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[5whiskey]

I bought a Remington 700 in .30-06 from my buddy Dave. He cleaned immediately after each use, and I believed him as he is a neat freak. But yet the rifle shot lousy. I found the bore was very fouled. Eventually electrolysis did the job. The anode rod revealed a mine of copper and coal. All his ritual cleaning didn't help.

You can think you clean a rifle really well, but not touch any of the fouling in the bore, if you aren't using the right products and methods. The old school military method of using clp for everything may get you by on rifles with a max tolerance of 4 moa (but realistically will easily hold half that with the right shooter)... but if you're chasing precision then clp, a bore brush, and cleaning patches on an eyelet don't cut it. Also, almost all military bores are chromelined and easier to remove fouling from.

Removing copper fouling from rough cut rifling with clp and a bore brush is an exercise in futility. That may be have explained the Rem 700 that you brought back, even though your buddy cleaned it.

As to the question.... I think there are a lot of "it depends." My son has a savage axis that has an atrocious barrel. First 10 rounds are iffy. Then the barrel seems to level out and actually group around moa or so (I made 800 yard shots at Butner with this rifle to prove the rifle was capable of it, if finicky about getting there). Then within 60-70 rounds or so, groups start to open up again.

I have another rifle with an ER Shaw barrel on it that I don't think I could tell the difference between a cold or fouled bore. Barrel is amazingly consistent, though with several thousand rounds through it groups are beginning to open a bit.

Most of my other rifles aren't scoped and not really in the category of rifles where cold bore shots matter.

 

[stagpanther]

Really, what I've found is that the quality of the barrel is what determines how well it will shoot and for how long. A really good barrel generally will not foul as badly, or as quickly, as an average one. An average barrel may shoot as well in terms of accuracy and/or consistency but will likely not do so as reliably. I think it's pretty easy to tell how well a barrel is made by how badly it fouls and how easy it is to clean it.

When I pay significant money for a match grade barrel what I expect is a barrel that can shoot consistently and predictably accurate shots at the POA. I don't want to worry about voodoo ammo or cleaning regimes; I just want to show up with a clean barrel, a box of ammo, take a fouler shot or two and know that the only reason I'm missing the POA is because I failed to dope the shot correctly or didn't operate the gun properly--which by far are the biggest variables in the consistency of my shots, personally.

 

[stuckinthe60s]

if fouling is good for a gun....theyd pre foul it at the factory.

 

[tangolima]

if fouling is good for a gun....theyd pre foul it at the factory.

If foul is bad for a gun.... you'd post clean it after each shot.

They sorta do pre foul it, if they test fire. They don't always clean it afterwards. Even the factory doesn't do it, the shooter does it himself. People fire fouling shots before they start doing the "real business".

-TL

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[Shadow9mm]

A clean gun is a happy gun, and happy guns save lives!

I clean down to bare barrel steel and I do it after every single range session. I use Bore Tech's Eliminator bore cleaner, it has a copper remover in it and it works pretty well. It took a bit of work at first to get my bore clean, but now that I use it all the time the copper just does not really get a chance to build up much. It also cleans regular fouling pretty well, and its bore safe, non-toxic, and does not stink to high heaven not much more I could ask for. Sure its not super cheap, a 16oz botte is about $43 off amazon, but it usually lasts me a couple years, saves me a bunch of time, and is only about the cost of 3 boxes of 9mm... well worth it.

 

[stagpanther]

I've never been able to precisely determine whether the first "sighter" shots are really "foulers" or "warm-uppers" for the barrel's steel. Maybe both; maybe depends on the barrel.

 

[Shadow9mm]

I've never been able to precisely determine whether the first "sighter" shots are really "foulers" or "warm-uppers" for the barrel's steel. Maybe both; maybe depends on the barrel.

I remember hearing an interesting concept that a lot of people seem to overlook, perhaps its the shooter that needs to warm up, not the gun.

So Believe the target podcase #45, with Ryan Cleckner. Cleckner is a retired army ranger sniper and works at or runs a school, I cannot remember which. In any case he said that he has his students dry fire each day before going live. He said that has eliminated the cold bore fliers and he believed that its the shooters needing to warm up, not the guns.

Its at about the 23min mark, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkwyeBP52Gw

I have personally noted with 22 rifles, after cleaning it generally takes 10-20 shots for them to settle back down. I think it has to do with the lubricant/coating on the lead bullets coating the barrel. I have also noted when shooting a fouled 22 and changing ammo brands it takes another 10-20 shots for that brand of ammo to settle down. But I am unsure if/how this related to standard centerfire cartridges.

 

[stagpanther]

I have no doubt that the shooter is the biggest introducer of shot variability; though I think complexities in the weapon and shooter's position can make it more likely that the variability will be aggravated.

I've often wondered about the causes of shifting POI's and how they relate to holding the gun and operating it. When I finally get a good hold and start hitting consistently and accurately--am I really securely holding the gun and repeatedly firing as close as can to what a fixed test barrel would get--or have I simply found a way that the deviations are consistent enough that the impacts group well? Cleckner alludes to this in the shifts when shooting at different diamonds on the target. I also agree about the mental confusion that can be introduced by "chasing the impacts." It often happens that when I can visually see the impacts with a good scope I wander around with scope adjustments and very often aggravate group size. Conversely, when I shoot with a low power scope at a long distance where I can't see the impacts it often surprises that the groups are smaller than what I think they are (assuming I'm not missing the target altogether). I definitely get into self mind games which often are self-defeating.

 

[georgehwbush]

stuckinthe60s: (just curious...anyone here just drive their cars without changing the oil? i mean seriously, if the car is doing what it should, why bother?)

because you like comparing apples and turnips, lets do so. would you expect people to drive a car to work, seeing that it is faster to fly across the atlantic than it is to sail across it?

well of course that didn't make any sense, it's not supposed too.

i hope your question wasn't either.

anyway, i'll weigh in on the OP personally i clean when needed, and for the record that is generally about every 5 to 6 hundred rounds.

and as per the "i don't know how mil-snipers do it... generally speaking pre-cleaned. and then fouled (and all DOPE confirmed) with about 100+ rounds; and then go down range. exceptions exist of course. and i'm sure i'll hear about it.