To foul, or not too foul; that is the question

stagpanther

New member
This is one that is in the "very controversial" column; shooters tend to ardently stick to one opinion or the other on this. Basically, it comes down to "should I clean the bore of all copper--or should I let it foul in so it 'hits the sweet spot.'"

A lot of barrels that "just don't shoot right anymore" in my community end up in my hands. These are often older guns--but sometimes brand new ones as well--that seem to randomly spray the shots even with ammo that formerly was a tack-driver.

A high percentage of the time the bores are simply so fouled that there is little chance of the bullet exiting the muzzle well balanced. There could be a myriad number of reasons why some bores accumulate copper and carbon faster than others, my observations have been that a barrel that must foul-in in order to shoot well is really just a compensation for a bore that is either not consistent in concentricity and well-finished-- or has been shot past its prime. Top-quality match grade barrels rarely foul as quickly or as badly as OEM rifles.

Hunters are the ones most prone to "leave it alone and let it foul in" and there's something to be said for that considering that over the course of the year many of them will probably only put a few bullets down the bore. Problem is, I've never met one that knows approximately how many shots from a clean bore it takes to achieve "sweet spot accuracy" nor at what point should they expect the shots to randomly disperse widely.

I'm of the camp of keep the bore immaculately clean after every shooting if the barrel is still in good shape. A truly excellent barrel I've found will often shoot perfectly off a clean cold bore but in general I'll take one or two foulers--mostly to burn off residual cleaner/lubricant that remains in the bore.

I've cleaned a lot of bores that had a year, sometimes years, of copper and carbon accumulation; in almost every case the process of pitting and erosion had started at the bore steel and copper interface. It often has the appearance of little holes with snaky trails between them--like ant trails you see when turning over a large rock in miniature.
 
Your statement about pitting from the copper bore steel interface is very scary!

Is this viewed with a bore scope?
 
Is this viewed with a bore scope?
Yes--after I finally succeed in getting all the layers removed. I would add that the problem is probably worse in areas that are prone to exposure to moisture/high humidity.
 
Years back when I lived in Nevada I worked part time for a gunsmith. We had customers who came in wanting their rifles rebarreled because the barrel shot out. We suggested a hard cleaning first and put in a few hours getting all the copper and other junk out and lo and behold, the rifle would shoot like new. Worst caliber to work with was the .220 Swift and other high velocity .22s.
Paul B.
 
A rifle is a tool to complete certain job. I don't monkey with it as long as it does its task well.

If fouling means leave the bore uncleaned after use, then I do foul. I un-foul when the gun can't do the task anymore; group opens up, hit rate drops etc.

If fouling means putting dirt back to the bore after clean, then I try to avoid the issue by not cleaning the bore after each use. Premium barrels may not need a lot of rounds to foul, but I can't afford the barrels, nor can I afford the rounds to foul a normal barrel; easily 10 rounds.

My 22lr rifle has never been cleaned since I bought it. Over 2k rounds. My A2 clone has been clean a couple of times, with easily 500 rounds in between, if not more. I was trying to shut up my buddy who was bad mouthing AR's reliability. He doesn't taunt me anymore.

-TL aka the dirty gunner

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
just curious...anyone here just drive their cars without changing the oil? i mean seriously, if the car is doing what it should, why bother?
 
just curious...anyone here just drive their cars without changing the oil? i mean seriously, if the car is doing what it should, why bother?
They told us to change oil every 3k miles. I have been doing it every 8k without problem. We still have our 2001 Acura MDX. That's with ordinary oil. Even longer with synthetic oil.

A gun's bore needs cleaning. No problem. How often? You decide. I have seen people scrub every 10 shots or so.

-TL

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To clarify I do clean the bore. Just not after each use. When I clean, I really clean. It is quite usual I spend days to clean one gun, sometime I even go extreme and use electrolysis.

I clean when I see the need, or when I'm putting the gun away for longer term storage. To reduce corrosion, I attach a small strip of zinc to the steel as sacrificial anode.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
As Sgt. Schultz would say “I see nothing” !
I don’t doubt your knowledge stagpanther, I just have to sleep at night ;)
Having said that, I reckon I have some gun cleaning to do.

When I used to work, we had a bore scope for looking inside engines.
Mostly the cylinder walls and combustion chamber/valves.
Much easier than removing the cylinder head.
 
I only have my opinion--I do not claim it is correct in all circumstances. I put this out there mostly because I'm interested in what others have to say on the subject. A lot of the stuff I get is probably because many hunters are simply too lazy to clean their rifles as long as it shoots minute of dinner plate prior to deer season. So, that copper residue gets layered up over time. What I've observed as I got down through the layers is that it doesn't consist of just copper--it also will have heat-blasted mixed-in carbon and other residue from whatever powders are used. Cellulose used in powders, for example, can acidify when combined with humidity over time. Pure speculation on my part--it's also possible that lubricatants and solvents get trapped under the copper layers. I've worked in copper plate etching for much of my life and know that copper etches and oxidizes easily when in the presence of anything that is even mildly acidic--or base, either side of the PH spectrum can activate the deterioration. The copper "skid marks" tend to accumulate in areas of bore unevenness--again pure speculation on my part but I think it's also possible that there is some kind of capillary action going on whereby humidity, water, solvents etc can get "sucked into" the layers. Most of the time the coppering seems to be concentrated in the grooves, but sooner or later it will spread into the adjacent lands.
 
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I used to clean as soon as I got home, and took pride of that. A few things made me change mind over the years.

I bought a Remington 700 in .30-06 from my buddy Dave. He cleaned immediately after each use, and I believed him as he is a neat freak. But yet the rifle shot lousy. I found the bore was very fouled. Eventually electrolysis did the job. The anode rod revealed a mine of copper and coal. All his ritual cleaning didn't help.

The next thing is economic reality. I only have limited funds to do this silly gun thing. After cleaning the bore the way I like it, I need to fire fouling shots to bring the gun back to performance, as many as 10 rounds sometimes. Given today's prices, the cost is too high for me to bear.

Fouled bore can lead to corrosion? At least it doesn't help. Fortunately we live in a pretty dry climate. No problem so far. Again I do clean the bore before putting the gun away for longer term storage.

For cleaning, I mostly rely on the chemicals and time to do the job, instead of scrubbing like mad with brush. The brush is just a applicator.

-TL

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I'm in the fouled camp with my hunting rifles. I clean them when I'm done hunting down to bare metal. Or what I assume is such, as I don't own a bore scope.

From what my rifles show me, most like a fouled bore for cold bore shots. So when I'm hunting that's really what I'm worried about. So when I start shooting preseason my rifle stays fouled to post.

I've also found that I can't get away with mixing jacketed and mono metal projectiles. I can usually go from shooting jacketed to monos with not much issue, and vice versa. However, if I've shot monos then jacketed, and try to go back to monos my groups open up.

Once I clean back to bare metal the groups with monos tighten back up. So I just clean the barrel to bare metal during bullet testing every time I switch bullet types. Back when I started handloading I pretty much got away with shooting dirtier bores without accuracy issues. I just have to do things differently now.

I don't have to worry much about humidity where I live. Where my wife wants to retire to, that's a different story. I don't know if this boy will handle the change well!
 
Sorry you are going to more humidity in your retirement, unless your looking forward to it.
At least my guns reside in a climate controlled environment. Let’s face it, South Texas during almost half the year is a bummer without AC if you like that “fresh” feeling.
I have a buddy that has a huge safe in his garage. I couldn’t mentally handle that. I will say, at least his guns look fine on the outside.
 
If you are a hunter or like the SWATter I know, you should chart your POI for individual shots starting cold and clean. Or, like some, from cold and foul. Some barrels will move around as they accumulate heat and fouling.

Zeroing for the first shot out of a cold gun is tedious but should be done if you are not a target shooter with time for sighters to warm up the barrel.
 
Pumpkin said:
Sorry you are going to more humidity in your retirement, unless your looking forward to it.

I'm looking forward to a new chapter, but it's still 8-10 years away. Unless things drastically change here in Colorado, it is rapidly becoming hostile to those who want limited government. I'm saddened by what my home is becoming. So my wife's home state of Oklahoma is looking more appealing every year.

We're looking to retire to Eastern OK, so the humidity is quite a change for an Eastern plains boy. So far my only regret is she wasn't home when her mom passed suddenly in 2017. We had visited her for Thanksgiving and she was recovering from a back surgery. She was in a lot of pain at the time but we thought recovering. We got the call the morning of Christmas Eve she was gone. She had pneumonia, which caused heart failure. I don't think she was doing her deep breathing exercises because of the pain, and that caused the pneumonia.

My work is keeping us in Colorado as a transfer to Tulsa would be difficult due to agreements. I'm in a really good position with BNSF in CO, but would lose all my seniority transfering to Tulsa. I work a former ATSF terminal and Tulsa is former Burlington Northern and we have to abide by the merger agreements from the 93 merger. Closest we could get to Tulsa without losing seniorty is Arkansas City, KS. We've decided to stay put and move once I'm eligible to retire.
 
Well at least you’re getting close to Texas;)
Sad about Colorado, never been but seen plenty and know people who used to used to live there.
My mother’s birthday was on Christmas Eve, someone passing at that time of year seems to add to the sorrow.
 
If you are a hunter or like the SWATter I know, you should chart your POI for individual shots starting cold and clean. Or, like some, from cold and foul. Some barrels will move around as they accumulate heat and fouling.

Zeroing for the first shot out of a cold gun is tedious but should be done if you are not a target shooter with time for sighters to warm up the barrel.
Great suggestions.
 
Cold bore and clean bore are two different things I'm afraid. Zeroing a fouled cold bore is essential for hunting. But I haven't heard of anyone zeroing a clean bore. Bench rest shooter cleans his bore very frequently. He fire fouling shots after cleaning.

-TL

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Zeroing a fouled cold bore is essential for hunting.

How so? Check sights at the start of hunting season and not clean to hunt?


But I haven't heard of anyone zeroing a clean bore.


I have. I was talking to that SWATcop today. If I see him this weekend, I will confirm.
 
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