To cock or not?

[Erik]

A good shoot is a good shoot,and a bad a bad. And whether the hammer was cocked or not, in and of itself, has nothing to do with making the determination.

Note: The example given was of the DA claiming the shoot was bad by painting the discharge as negligent. That's not a hammer up or down based argument, but one of accidental/negligent discharge.

 

[Musketeer]

Its all about what a prosecuter can convince a jury of gun ignorant people to believe.

Exactly, so do not needlessly provide him with ammunition.

 

[BlueTrain]

Well, a double-action revolver (and some automatics) are designed to be fired in two different ways. That's why they're called double action. Then there's "double action only," which is a bad name for how it works.

 

[Jim Watson]

I believe it was M. Ayoob who once described the city PD that had its officers' revolvers set up DAO (OK, Jeff Cooper disciples, "trigger cocking") because the mere display of a gun had quit intimidating suspects. So the troops had gone to cocking their guns to show their determination, with the attendant risk of AD. It may have been pre-autoloader Los Angeles or other large jurisdiction.

I know of a couple of cases arising from a different direction, the practice of arming poor dumb weak females with revolvers because they are not strong enough to rack a slide or smart enough to learn what all the buttons and levers do. Well, these two women were not so dumb that they could not figure out that pulling a 12 lb DA with one finger was not much easier than hauling back on a 16 lb recoil spring with both hands. They soon realized that cocking the hammer for a 3 lb trigger pull made it much easier to get hits. That worked fine on the range but when it came time to check out a bump in the night, they habitually eared back their hammers first and then went through the house. One made it all the way through and slipped when decocking; leaving a hole in the floor. One started at a shadow and wounded a water bed, fortunately missing the membrane and just chewing up the rail padding. No doubt if they had taken the Thunder Ranch SAA class, they would have had better technique.

 

[OldMarksman]

How would they know for sure if your revolver was cocked in the first place?

That misses the point.

The question will be, was the shooting justified, or not?

Should one happen to fire when it was not justifiable, the result will be catastrophic.

One way that that might happen is an inintentional pull of the trigger.

Here's a good read on the subject, with a couple of relevant excerpts.

...people who carry a revolver for self defense should practice almost exclusively for double action fire, ... there are almost no situations in which single action fire is appropriate in self defense. ... A cocked revolver is dangerous in the adrenaline dump of a lethal force encounter. ... Its too easy to fire when you don't mean to.

In a nervous situation, a cocked revolver is dangerous. When you're really nervous or scared, the heavy double action trigger pull is an asset rather than a liability. I can hear you say, Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire, and that's true, but ... people don't always do what they're supposed to do in the stress of a deadly encounter.

http://www.snubnose.info/docs/daovdasa.htm

 

[Don P]

Then there's "double action only," which is a bad name for how it works.

Why is this a bad name for a handgun that does 2 functions when the trigger is pulled? Guess a single action is a bad term also cause you gotta cock da hammer and den pull da trigger??? Dat waz 2 actions(double)

 

[BlueTrain]

No, a double-action only revolver (or automatic) cannot be cocked, even if there is an exposed hammer. The term is contradictory in that it means "it has two actions but only one way works." But I assume everyone knows the difference. Pulling the trigger on any revolver fires the gun, no matter what else it does.

Do you dig what I mean?

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I was trying to think of an erudite way to express just how silly I think the premise in the original post is, but I can't.

I'll let the fact that I carry a single-action 1911 cocked & locked speak for itself.

 

[silvercorvette]

I agree with Aguila Blanca

I was trying to think of an erudite way to express just how silly I think the premise in the original post is, but I can't.

I'll let the fact that I carry a single-action 1911 cocked & locked speak for itself.

The original post is one big pile of ain't right

I haven't read the replies yet so I don't know if I am repeating what was said already. I will read the entire thread when I finish posting.

My question is this: a friend claims that in a justified self defense shooting, the investigating DA can use whether you cocked the hammer or not against you

I also carry a 1911 which is cocked and locked and is designed to be carried that way, but assuming you carry a revolver which is not designed to be carried cocked how would anyone known EDIT I strongly advise you to never carry a cocked revolver, and to use the revolver double action. Cocking a revolver is for shooting log distance accurately, if you are far away there usually is an opportunity to retreat

Therefore my friend strongly recommends against carrying anything with an external hammer.

pure nonsense police have carried revolvers with exposed hammers for more years than most of us have been alive. I carried one (S&W .38 revolver) for 20 years when I was a cop.

My position is that showing the pistol is the warning, cocking the hammer is the very stern warning and the rest is what it is whether the hammer is internal or not

This is so wrong for so many reason. What happens if your thumb slips on the hammer as you cock it and the gun fires how do you explain the dead body. which leads to reason #2 You NEVER EVER pull out a gun unless you intend on shooting someone. Pulling out a gun to scare someone is called brandishing and it is against the law.

Which leads to #3 one of the rules in fire arms is to never point one at something you don't intend to destroy.

What happens if you take out the gun and you are not legally justified to use DPF (deadly physical force), your bluff fails and you can't legally shoot so now you have a choice of standing there looking silly with a gun in your hand you can't use. Or you get scared and fire the gun and shoot a person that you legally have no right to shoot.

As far as I am concerned if the gun comes out of the holster I am going to shoot immediately. I will not be engaging an any discussion

To me the decision to cock the hammer in front of the would-be-assailant gives him another opportunity to walk away before something bad happens. It lets him know I'm really serious about this and yes this could happen.

The smart thing is for you to walk away if there is trouble about to start, having a gun is a big responsibility but you only use it as your last option. Unless they are in your house walk away if you can unless doing so will mean you or a loved one will loose their life

I should also mention that I'm fully aware of the "I have a gun, don't make me shoot you" line. I guess I should have mentioned that the complete order would start with the verbal warning.

I would not tell anyone I have a gun, I would try to avoid the situation before it got to that point. When you carry you should have a high level of situational awareness and spot trouble before it starts so you can withdraw before the gun becomes necessary.

If you carry a gun you should be prepared to use the gun without a debate if you start a conversation and hesitate the attacker will see it as weakness and probably take away your gun.

make sure you know the law and justification for use of DPF

If you are unprepared to use DPF and pull out a gun thinking it will scare someone away then I suggest you get a gun with a trench sigh like the Colt "New Agent" so it won't hurt as much when it gets shoved up your butt when your bluff fails.

 

[silvercorvette]

A good post by mete I agree 100%

It pretty much echoes what I was getting at, but he/she posted first

NEVER cock the gun to show the BG you're serious !! If you just want to scare him you shouldn't have a gun in the first place.Don't engage in conversation .If your life or safety is in immediate danger don't talk just shoot. Don't try to be nice to someone who's there to harm you.
After all he may be mentally ill, sociopath, psychopath, high on drugs or alcohol , they're all unpredictable and dangerous.

 

[silvercorvette]

After I posted last night I came up with a question this morning.

If you have taken you gun out of it's holster why are you talking and not shooting?

The second that gun come out of the holster you should be aiming and shooting. it.

Why are you pointing a loaded gun at someone you don't intend to shoot?

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

OK, folks we have done the discussion about whether you must shoot if you draw into the dirt.

Many folks draw the gun and challenge. The draw means that you are in a situation where using legal force is justified. It doesn't mean in a given situation that you have to shoot.

Said many times. Thus, we don't need to go down that trail again.

I also don't see anything more to be said on the pros and cons of cocking the gun. Cogent points were made.

Closed.