Tired of the AR 15 Want a bolt rifle
- Thread starter Wendyj
- Start date
JeepHammer
Moderator
Wendy, that's typical for DATUM LENGTH (head space being in the chamber).
Auto gunners, particularly speed gunners, like to bump the shoulder back a little further so it loads reliable every time.
It's a little harder on the brass since the brass stretches when fired, then has to be bent back into shape, but it sure beats spending endless hours trying to get Datum length perfect for the chamber headspace, out of the press for measure, back in the press trying to get that last half thousandth over & over again...
Auto gunners, particularly speed gunners, like to bump the shoulder back a little further so it loads reliable every time.
It's a little harder on the brass since the brass stretches when fired, then has to be bent back into shape, but it sure beats spending endless hours trying to get Datum length perfect for the chamber headspace, out of the press for measure, back in the press trying to get that last half thousandth over & over again...
JeepHammer
Moderator
PPGMD,
I don't post about specific 'One Bullet' target rifles, the guys wanting such rifles are locked into a specific type/weight of bullet, so I build specifically for that type of bullet, and all the drawbacks that come with that specific bullet.
Those barrels don't grow on trees, and you don't find them in common bolt rifles.
Wendy asked about heavy target bullets, but also said it might be used for hunting.
Since the bullets she has several of aren't stupid heavy, I wouldn't consider 1:6" or 1:7" twist.
She might want to try something else once the reserve runs out, and stupid fast twist locks her into more heavy to stupid heavy bullets.
I don't post about specific 'One Bullet' target rifles, the guys wanting such rifles are locked into a specific type/weight of bullet, so I build specifically for that type of bullet, and all the drawbacks that come with that specific bullet.
Those barrels don't grow on trees, and you don't find them in common bolt rifles.
Wendy asked about heavy target bullets, but also said it might be used for hunting.
Since the bullets she has several of aren't stupid heavy, I wouldn't consider 1:6" or 1:7" twist.
She might want to try something else once the reserve runs out, and stupid fast twist locks her into more heavy to stupid heavy bullets.
Except they aren't. Overstablization will affect accuracy, but not to the extreme "It will only shoot one type of bullet" level. And certainly any of the common twist rates will shoot 55gr bullets well. Even if you go to something extreme like a 1:6.5" twist barrel, sure you won't get the maximum accuracy out of 55gr bullets but it will still shoot it to reasonable accuracy levels (ie sub MOA).
Outside of shooting extremely light weigh varmint bullets overstablization isn't a concern for non-match shooters. Particularly since the extreme twist rates (which I consider anything faster than 1:7" extreme) are not available in factory rifles. And isn't a concern for match shooters because they are going for the super heavy bullets.
Outside of shooting extremely light weigh varmint bullets overstablization isn't a concern for non-match shooters. Particularly since the extreme twist rates (which I consider anything faster than 1:7" extreme) are not available in factory rifles. And isn't a concern for match shooters because they are going for the super heavy bullets.
JeepHammer
Moderator
Well, I guess that seals things...
No such thing as 'Over Stabilization'...
The spin either stabilizes the bullet, or it doesn't.
Instability due to spin is either too little or too much, underspin & overspin are acceptable.
The point is entirely purpose, APPLICATION.
She didn't say it would be a dedicated long range target queen, custom built for stupid heavy bullets.
She said she was looking for a rifle that would bang targets (since she's NOT stupid, that doesn't mean 1,000 yards), AND some hunting.
The current crop of precision rifles off the rack are 'Varmint' types, that means mostly 1:10" or 1:9" twist in bolt rifles, both will shoot hunting/varmint rounds and her supply of heavies, since they aren't stupid heavy and she isn't silly enough to try 1,000 yards with a .223 like a bunch of people I know *Claim* they do...
Her bullets will do a solid 600 yards, with EXACTLY the right load, *Might* even reach 800 yards.
Recommending some unicorn barrel that doesn't come off the shelf in a common rifle, or just the barrel eats up the budget is both pointless & confuses the issue.
I'm NOT talking MOA with this or that unicorn bullet, but standard Hornady bullets with common propellant & available primers shooting well under MOA,
I consider a 'Varmint' rifle suspect if I can't put 10 rounds under a nickel, and it's about right when 10 hit under a dime with commonly available components.
Since 'Varmint' rifles have a purpose, the available varmint rounds that make pinpoint accuracy possible ARE NOT available in stupid heavy weights, I can get behind that idea.
The idea of shooting a .223 1,000 yards to begin with is stupid.
There are a very select few that can shoot 1,000 yards, even less that can do it with a fully customized (read expensive) .223.
It becomes even more ridiculous when you can pull a $500 .308 (or a dozen other common chamberings) off the shelf and shoot 1,000 yards all day long without (expensive) modifications.
Again, correct application for the job. 223 is designed from the ground up to be pin point accurate (inherently accurate) at short to intermediate ranges to shoot VARMINTS with.
With proper ammo, it will pound 600 yards all day long, but energy at the target suffers no matter how heavy the bullet.
It wasn't built to punch paper targets at 1,000 yards so you can brag about your misapplication.
Don't get me wrong, I've built several, and I love those guys since they will dump buckets of money on my counter.
Then buckets more trying to find loads that will reach 1,000 yards,
And buckets more for optics that are accurate enough for 1,000 yards...
Before they figure out they aren't (and never will be) Wylde or Tubb.
People that just talk crap and don't understand the basics about what they read or heard just annoy me since they aren't paying me...
No such thing as 'Over Stabilization'...
The spin either stabilizes the bullet, or it doesn't.
Instability due to spin is either too little or too much, underspin & overspin are acceptable.
The point is entirely purpose, APPLICATION.
She didn't say it would be a dedicated long range target queen, custom built for stupid heavy bullets.
She said she was looking for a rifle that would bang targets (since she's NOT stupid, that doesn't mean 1,000 yards), AND some hunting.
The current crop of precision rifles off the rack are 'Varmint' types, that means mostly 1:10" or 1:9" twist in bolt rifles, both will shoot hunting/varmint rounds and her supply of heavies, since they aren't stupid heavy and she isn't silly enough to try 1,000 yards with a .223 like a bunch of people I know *Claim* they do...
Her bullets will do a solid 600 yards, with EXACTLY the right load, *Might* even reach 800 yards.
Recommending some unicorn barrel that doesn't come off the shelf in a common rifle, or just the barrel eats up the budget is both pointless & confuses the issue.
I'm NOT talking MOA with this or that unicorn bullet, but standard Hornady bullets with common propellant & available primers shooting well under MOA,
I consider a 'Varmint' rifle suspect if I can't put 10 rounds under a nickel, and it's about right when 10 hit under a dime with commonly available components.
Since 'Varmint' rifles have a purpose, the available varmint rounds that make pinpoint accuracy possible ARE NOT available in stupid heavy weights, I can get behind that idea.
The idea of shooting a .223 1,000 yards to begin with is stupid.
There are a very select few that can shoot 1,000 yards, even less that can do it with a fully customized (read expensive) .223.
It becomes even more ridiculous when you can pull a $500 .308 (or a dozen other common chamberings) off the shelf and shoot 1,000 yards all day long without (expensive) modifications.
Again, correct application for the job. 223 is designed from the ground up to be pin point accurate (inherently accurate) at short to intermediate ranges to shoot VARMINTS with.
With proper ammo, it will pound 600 yards all day long, but energy at the target suffers no matter how heavy the bullet.
It wasn't built to punch paper targets at 1,000 yards so you can brag about your misapplication.
Don't get me wrong, I've built several, and I love those guys since they will dump buckets of money on my counter.
Then buckets more trying to find loads that will reach 1,000 yards,
And buckets more for optics that are accurate enough for 1,000 yards...
Before they figure out they aren't (and never will be) Wylde or Tubb.
People that just talk crap and don't understand the basics about what they read or heard just annoy me since they aren't paying me...
Strange because I never said overstablization didn't exist, simply that it isn't a concern. The type of people that it is a concern for already know about it, because the know enough about shooting rifles to know that one rifle can't both shoot super heavy bullets (which aren't stupid), and super light bullets (note I didn't call them stupid even though they are specialized bullets I have no use for). 
armednfree
New member
North Georgia. Hills and woods. For coyote no kind of heavy barrel is the ticket. That's the same type of place I hunt in down in Southern Ohio. Best is a fast handling rifle, none better than the CZ 527, and a low power scope like a 2-7x.
I have this Ruger Predator. It is nothing gorgeous to look at, but with my hand loads, it is a shooter! I have 60 grain Nosler hand loads that group inside of a nickel. I love it!
Almost al the "budget" under $500 rifles come with ugly synthetic stocks now. I hate them when I first handle the rifle. I am thankful for them
when I am climbing up the tree stand, or sit there in cold and rain, or when it's bouncing in its holster on my ATV...Boyd's makes good stocks if you must have a wood one and it would likely be a much better quality stock then you would get from the manufacturer... Having said that, my Savage 110 came with a gorgeous stock (7 years ago) and I'm not knocking CZ down either, they are very fine guns.
stagpanther
New member
I see a request for good shooting varmint/coyote gun at first--but then something for banging gongs at longer distance. I'd get something which the barrels can be swapped out easily on.
Don Fischer
New member
Which brand of bolt action rifle you buy isn't going to mean a whole lot. There are those that couldn't hit their butt with both hands. And just because your rifle cartridge will handle a certain wt bullet does not mean it will handle it well. You want to handle the bullet's weight's your talking about you should be looking at fast twist. I don't think many bolt action's come with it. Depending on what you'll use it for mainly could well determine what you actually need. An off the rack 223 in a bolt action I believe does not come with a barrel with the twist to handle those heavy bullet's. You might consider stepping up a bit to 24 or 25 cal for heavier bullet's.
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In my opinion and experience, a 1 in 8" twist is fast enough for up to 75 grain bullets, and has no negative effect on 55 and 60 grain bullets. A lot of resources say you need slower for 55, but I have two .223 rifles with 1 in 8" ROT and both of them group MOA or better. One, which seems almost to be a magic barrel, shoots beautiful groups with 40 grain up 75 grain bullets.
I know, I know... every gun is different and I probably got lucky. But when you have a caliber with as many twist rates as .224 has, you're fine tuning to minor improvement percentages. And I would assert that the detriment of over-stabilization is far less common, or practically applicable, than some would have us think.
Just my two cents.
I know, I know... every gun is different and I probably got lucky. But when you have a caliber with as many twist rates as .224 has, you're fine tuning to minor improvement percentages. And I would assert that the detriment of over-stabilization is far less common, or practically applicable, than some would have us think.
Just my two cents.
jackstrawIII
New member
Hit the nail on the head. I shoot 40 grain bullets in mine. True 1/2" groups of 5 shots all the time in a light and handy package. Can't beat it.
I'd get the Tikka T3 Lite, but with the standard twist. It will shoot 55 grain rounds perfectly. It's the only rifle I own that didn't need any bedding work to achieve half-inch or better groups.
You could cheap out on the scope if necessary to stay within budget, but you'll be very happy with the Tikka.
You could cheap out on the scope if necessary to stay within budget, but you'll be very happy with the Tikka.