couldbeanyone
New member
drail, I am not talking about jams or misfires. I am talking about breaking. If you have a gun with 50,000 rounds through it please do opine, as personal experience is what I am looking for.
Tired of guns that fail
- Thread starter couldbeanyone
- Start date
couldbeanyone
New member
FrankenMauser,
I have worked in a machine shop in the past and have assembled many a racing engine. I am aware that machines break. I am also aware that your average small block Chevrolet dirt track racing engine makes over 50,000 cycles in just its first night of racing. We are talking extreme valve spring pressures and exhaust temperatures in excess of 1500 degrees. I can also tell you that if a racing engine fails on its first night, someone is going to be mighty unhappy and asking some very pointed questions. Also, you don't have to be at the track very long to learn what engines are suitable for racing and which are not. Information on guns is not so easy to come by unless you know someone who owns that gun and has shot it a lot.
I don't think asking 50,000 cycles of a single action 22lr revolver is asking too much. The gun is being slowly cocked, nothing is moving that fast, and nothing is being exposed to extreme temperatures or pressures. If properly designed and assembled, I can think of no reason it shouldn't have a very, very long service life.
I have worked in a machine shop in the past and have assembled many a racing engine. I am aware that machines break. I am also aware that your average small block Chevrolet dirt track racing engine makes over 50,000 cycles in just its first night of racing. We are talking extreme valve spring pressures and exhaust temperatures in excess of 1500 degrees. I can also tell you that if a racing engine fails on its first night, someone is going to be mighty unhappy and asking some very pointed questions. Also, you don't have to be at the track very long to learn what engines are suitable for racing and which are not. Information on guns is not so easy to come by unless you know someone who owns that gun and has shot it a lot.
I don't think asking 50,000 cycles of a single action 22lr revolver is asking too much. The gun is being slowly cocked, nothing is moving that fast, and nothing is being exposed to extreme temperatures or pressures. If properly designed and assembled, I can think of no reason it shouldn't have a very, very long service life.
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I agree with couldbeanyone.
I bought a Ruger Mark I in 1976 and used to buy cheap bulk ammo in milk cartons. I don't know how many rounds that I put through that gun, but I am pretty sure that it was over 50,000 between 1976 and 2011.
Other than the usual cleaning and maintenance, nothing ever broke required replacement. Of coarse there was the occasional misfire or jam, but that's not the guns fault.
I don't think your expectaions are out of line.
I bought a Ruger Mark I in 1976 and used to buy cheap bulk ammo in milk cartons. I don't know how many rounds that I put through that gun, but I am pretty sure that it was over 50,000 between 1976 and 2011.
Other than the usual cleaning and maintenance, nothing ever broke required replacement. Of coarse there was the occasional misfire or jam, but that's not the guns fault.
I don't think your expectaions are out of line.
jolly roger
New member
A good used J frame 22 Kit Gun. Small but sturdy.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
I have a ruger MKII that I have put 10k+ rounds through and I bought it used. Never checked the date, but I bet it was around a while before I got it.
Surprised the bearcat failed. I assume you contacted their customer service and they took care of it. I would give it a second chance. The products I would recommend would all be rugers. I would look at revolvers before semis b/c of the forementioned feed issues. 10,000 in a 22 isn't that much though.
Surprised the bearcat failed. I assume you contacted their customer service and they took care of it. I would give it a second chance. The products I would recommend would all be rugers. I would look at revolvers before semis b/c of the forementioned feed issues. 10,000 in a 22 isn't that much though.
I think you are looking at it the wrong way. Your Bearcat didn't fail, a spring inside it did, and a leaf sping at that. Flat (leaf) springs are notorious for being the kind of spring most prone to fail or take a set. And, even today, once in a while, a less than best one gets into a gun, and fails early.
Because good guns last so long, we tend to think that they (and all their parts) should last forever. But that just isn't so. And springs are considered the most expendible part of any gun. Springs wear out. Thats a fact, and there is no getting around it. Barrels wear out as well. But if correctly cared for, that takes a while.
However, you are entirely correct about that spring failing way too early in its service life. It was defective. Ruger should have replaced it, on their dime.
Because good guns last so long, we tend to think that they (and all their parts) should last forever. But that just isn't so. And springs are considered the most expendible part of any gun. Springs wear out. Thats a fact, and there is no getting around it. Barrels wear out as well. But if correctly cared for, that takes a while.
However, you are entirely correct about that spring failing way too early in its service life. It was defective. Ruger should have replaced it, on their dime.
I have two Springfield 1911s that I built back in the 1980s for IPSC/USPSA and steel that are both past 70,000 rounds. One has the classic tiny frame cracks between the dust cover and the rails that seem to be self limiting after about 1/4". That particular gun has always had Shok buffs installed and the frame still cracked. The gun was only used with standard loads. Apparently Shok buffs really are a waste of money. I have only changed the springs on them regularly. I also have a Ruger Mk II that is past 50,000 that still shoots better than I can. The only failures I have experienced were due to either magazine issues or bad ammo. I think most guns can easily reach 50,000 rounds once you find any bugs from manufacturing and correct them. Spring quality and proper tempering is all over the map unfortunately. You'll get mostly good ones and a few bad ones.
drail, 70k rounds and you're still on the same barrel? That's amazing! I've seen lots of barrels worn to the point of replacment well before that. And by replacement I don't mean the barrel wasn't ok to shoot, just that it wouldn't shoot decent groups anymore. Still "minute of man" at close range, but it was a good day when you could cover the group with your palm.
Everything wears out, if it gets used enough. How much is enough so that one has gotten one's money's worth, is the question. Parts wear out, parts break before being "worn" out too. Some guns will go on working with parts so worn you have to wonder how they do it. Othes don't, and it can be the same make and model!
I don't consider a gun worn out until the frame is worn to the point it cannot be safely rebuilt. A gun that doesn't need any major component replacement before that point has given you excellent service, even if you do need to replace some smaller parts (springs, extractor, etc.) along the way.
Now, a gun that consistantly has issues with minor parts, that one isn't a good one. And it can be just that individual gun. Another of the same kind might be flawless, although if there is a design flaw that leads to early failure of certain parts, that usually is found in most individual examples. But it still varies a bit. You might have owned 3 of the same thing and each one has the same problem, and your buddy down the block might have the one that runs for years without a glitch at all.
Everything wears out, if it gets used enough. How much is enough so that one has gotten one's money's worth, is the question. Parts wear out, parts break before being "worn" out too. Some guns will go on working with parts so worn you have to wonder how they do it. Othes don't, and it can be the same make and model!
I don't consider a gun worn out until the frame is worn to the point it cannot be safely rebuilt. A gun that doesn't need any major component replacement before that point has given you excellent service, even if you do need to replace some smaller parts (springs, extractor, etc.) along the way.
Now, a gun that consistantly has issues with minor parts, that one isn't a good one. And it can be just that individual gun. Another of the same kind might be flawless, although if there is a design flaw that leads to early failure of certain parts, that usually is found in most individual examples. But it still varies a bit. You might have owned 3 of the same thing and each one has the same problem, and your buddy down the block might have the one that runs for years without a glitch at all.
Dragline45
New member
50,000 rounds? It's a little ridiculous to ask for a gun to shoot 50,000 rounds without a single failure. I'm sure someone will come on here and say my "insert favorite pistol here" has shot 1 million rounds without a FTE or FTF, and as usual I will not believe them. As far as will most guns hold up after 50,000 rounds, most likely but they would probably run better with spring changes every 20,000 rounds or so.
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I'd say the Bearcat would be your best bet, the atypical example aside.
Rugers .22 single actions are durable as heck. I got my first new one, an old model Single Six, at 14 and at the time I was making plenty of money mowing yards, hauling hay helping stone masons build fireplaces. Barely had time for school, LOL.
I could not begin to tell you how many 500 round bricks of .22 LR that little SA digested over the next 5 years; at least one a month and sometimes as many as three. I abused it, fanned it, dropped it, fell in creeks with it and did everything wrong you could do maintenence-wise. It was oblivious to it all and just kept on running- and shooting like a house afire.
Rugers .22 single actions are durable as heck. I got my first new one, an old model Single Six, at 14 and at the time I was making plenty of money mowing yards, hauling hay helping stone masons build fireplaces. Barely had time for school, LOL.
I could not begin to tell you how many 500 round bricks of .22 LR that little SA digested over the next 5 years; at least one a month and sometimes as many as three. I abused it, fanned it, dropped it, fell in creeks with it and did everything wrong you could do maintenence-wise. It was oblivious to it all and just kept on running- and shooting like a house afire.
"Also, you don't have to be at the track very long to learn what engines are suitable for racing and which are not."
True. Like most mechanical devices, guns are designed to have a reasonable life expectancy based on anticipated use. While the Chevy racing engine would be expected to have a certain performance, would that same level of performance be expected from a lawnmower engine? Or a Chevy Nova engine?
A gun like the Ruger Single Six should easily go 50k rounds of .22 LR. But would anyone seriously expect an S&W 340 to take 50k of hot .357 loads, even if the shooter could? There are many target revolvers that are on record as having gone to 100k and more with target loads. But light pocket pistols are simply not made for that kind of endurance.
Jim
True. Like most mechanical devices, guns are designed to have a reasonable life expectancy based on anticipated use. While the Chevy racing engine would be expected to have a certain performance, would that same level of performance be expected from a lawnmower engine? Or a Chevy Nova engine?
A gun like the Ruger Single Six should easily go 50k rounds of .22 LR. But would anyone seriously expect an S&W 340 to take 50k of hot .357 loads, even if the shooter could? There are many target revolvers that are on record as having gone to 100k and more with target loads. But light pocket pistols are simply not made for that kind of endurance.
Jim
couldbeanyone
New member
44 AMP, you are probably right about looking at it wrong. It is just very irritating to have 3 guns fail in row, especially when you buy the Bearcat thinking it should be extremely durable. I have a hard time getting free to do anything during normal weekly business hours, almost impossible short of taking a vacation day. So no it's not REALLY a big deal, but it is very irritating and extremely inconvenient.
Sarge, the Bearcat is gone. I was very disappointed when I saw this thin piece of spring steel (and I do mean thin) basically bradded onto the side of another part. Not what I expected out of a Ruger. I would have to agree with you on the Single Six, I think mine was just a fluke.
James K, some of our Chevy racing engines started life in a Nova. The point I was trying to make is that a Chevy Nova engine can be modified and with the right parts can make a good oval track racing engine. Don't try it with a 350 Oldsmobile or Buick though. Very common knowledge at the track. This kind of knowledge isn't as easy to find out in the gun world. So many brands and models of guns. Also a lot of people never shoot them enough to find out if they are durable.
Sarge, the Bearcat is gone. I was very disappointed when I saw this thin piece of spring steel (and I do mean thin) basically bradded onto the side of another part. Not what I expected out of a Ruger. I would have to agree with you on the Single Six, I think mine was just a fluke.
James K, some of our Chevy racing engines started life in a Nova. The point I was trying to make is that a Chevy Nova engine can be modified and with the right parts can make a good oval track racing engine. Don't try it with a 350 Oldsmobile or Buick though. Very common knowledge at the track. This kind of knowledge isn't as easy to find out in the gun world. So many brands and models of guns. Also a lot of people never shoot them enough to find out if they are durable.
If I were looking for a pocket pistol in .22lr I'd probably pick up one of the SP101s. I'd rather have something a bit easier to shoot than a pocket pistol and use my Mark III in a belt holster.
Personally I consider springs consumables just like ammo. Replacing springs after 10000-20000 rounds is probably a good idea. If I happen to pick up a used gun, the first thing I do is order all new springs for it. When I picked up my father's old Walther PP and Ortgies vest pocket pistol I ordered spring kits from Wolff, then tore the guns down to the frame and replaced every spring in both guns (who knew there were so many).
Stu
Personally I consider springs consumables just like ammo. Replacing springs after 10000-20000 rounds is probably a good idea. If I happen to pick up a used gun, the first thing I do is order all new springs for it. When I picked up my father's old Walther PP and Ortgies vest pocket pistol I ordered spring kits from Wolff, then tore the guns down to the frame and replaced every spring in both guns (who knew there were so many).
Stu