Timing Dragoon Conversion

Howdy!

Well let's see if I can clear up a few things...........

Scorch (in post #14) did a real good job of how a cartridge Colts revolver works (2 stage hand), the Cap and Ball versions all utilize a single stage hand.

This is not all in vain........because if you take that part of his explanation away the rest of his "snubbing" story is basically your problem!

First, make sure the length of the hand is correct. It should not over rotate the cylinder with the bolt and trigger out of the firearm. Just hold some tension on the cylinder and cock the hammer (with the grip frame, hammer and mainspring attached). Once this is done, measure the width of the bolt and the bolt notches in the cylinder. The bolt much fit in the notch. If necessary file/stone the side (not the leading side).

The main culprit in your saga is that the ramp leading UP to the tooth of the ratchet is cut perpendicular to the face of the Kirst cylinder. This causes the hand to "stack" as it tries to push the cylinder forward as it turns the cylinder (has to do with the curved slot in the frame). Walt Kirst was over here a time or two ago and I pointed this out to him and he agrees that it needs to be addressed in future manufacture. I ALWAYS round this ramp with a dremel to ensure smooth cocking all the way through the hammer stoke and I assure you that I have not done a single conversion on a Walker or Dragoon that didn't need this.

The amount of free play, fore and aft, of your cylinder also affects this "stacking" I am referring to. This is noticeable if you pound the wedge in too far, the cylinder will rub the breech end of the barrel and the cocking will become much harder.........

Getting a real good action in a Walker or Dragoon is not quick or easy with a Kirst cylinder but it can be done! The 1849 Colts is even harder........

By the way, I am not asociated with Kirst in any way other than selling their product and my FRIENDSHIP with Walt. I still do a LOT of Trial and Development for Walt and I support their products wholeheartedly.
 
Hoof,
Thank you very much for the reply.
Now I can stop scratching my head trying to see what Scorch was refering to on the hand. No slam on him, all useful info for the most part.

I will take your info into the shop and see what I can do with it.

Thank you very much.
 
The shop manual reference earlier and two new oversized hand/spring assemblies arrived today, will be doing some reading and see what happens.
 
Been down due to a back injury, haven't gotten to the shop yet.

Will report on progress soon.

The shop manual is a very interesting read. Not much on what I'm looking for specifically but enough to make the book a great buy. Thanks for the referral.
 
Spent a little time in the shop and tried the gun with the bolt removed as suggested.

There was no difference at all. It looks very much like the hand is jamming up against part of the ratchet.

I tried it with original BP cylinder and it rotated and cocked fine. So it is somehow related to how the hand is interacting with the new cylinder ratchet.

I also tried it with and without the loading ring in place with no difference.

I have slowly worked the hammer pin on a new hand/spring so it fits the hammer, I now need to begin honing down the new hand where it engages the ratchet. Not sure how to begin other than make it close to the original and go from there.
 
After weeks of searching for a good source of information or someone to show me how to do this, I have thrown in the towel.

I tried to modify a new hand/spring assembly to see if I could "wing it" on my own and even though I worked on it very slow and carefully, I never even came close to getting it to turn the cylinder. It was quite frustrating not having the info I needed.

I did NOT modify any original parts or the new Kirst Konversion cylinders so no harm done.

I sent both Dragoons off to the gunsmith so it can be done right and I'll just have to accept the fact this is yet one more thing I can't do. ;)

Thanks to those who tried to help out, I really do appreciate it.
 
I sent them off to Jay at Raven's Roost in Texas.
He was very helpful via the phone and email.
He should be getting them in another 3 days and he said he could turn them around in about 4 to 6 weeks which is FAR BETTER than what I could get locally.

I'll be sure to share how it all turns out.
 
I know ya been gettin good advice on this problem...But i'm gonna throw my 2 cents in for what its worth...Have ya checked the hand channel for a large burr, or deep tool marking that could be imparing the hand spring?
 
I know ya been gettin good advice on this problem...But i'm gonna throw my 2 cents in for what its worth...Have ya checked the hand channel for a large burr, or deep tool marking that could be imparing the hand spring?
Click to expand...

Yes sir I did. I disassembled completely and went over the channel area and looked for Burrs and rough spots and even foreign objects. I have a nice bench light with a 10" magnifying glass and found nothing that was getting in the way.

The original BP cylinder worked smooth and perfect. But the conversion cylinder just plain locks up.

I am fully expecting to hear that the ratchet on the conversion will need to be stoned or material removed. We'll see in a few weeks.

Thanks for the 2 cents! I appreciate it.
 
Rigamarol

This is the issue (as I explained previous in this thread):

The main culprit in your saga is that the ramp leading UP to the tooth of the ratchet is cut perpendicular to the face of the Kirst cylinder. This causes the hand to "stack" as it tries to push the cylinder forward as it turns the cylinder (has to do with the curved slot in the frame). Walt Kirst was over here a time or two ago and I pointed this out to him and he agrees that it needs to be addressed in future manufacture. I ALWAYS round this ramp with a dremel to ensure smooth cocking all the way through the hammer stoke and I assure you that I have not done a single conversion on a Walker or Dragoon that didn't need this.

I sure hope that your Smith is kind to you on the price as he will correct the issue in about 10 minutes with a sanding drum on a dremel.........
 
I sure hope that your Smith is kind to you on the price as he will correct the issue in about 10 minutes with a sanding drum on a dremel.........
Click to expand...

I'm having the the loading channel machined and refinished as well. He's given me a flat rate quote of $125.00 to fit the cylinder, cut the loading channel and refinish the bluing. I think that is very reasonable... since I couldn't do the fitting myself without the right knowledge and experience. It wasn't for lack of trying though. I prefer to do things myself but sometimes you just have to pay the man and move on.
 
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