Time to think with a cool head. That means I need help!!

P

Pond James Pond

New member
I've come to a rifled crossroads.

Tomorrow I sign my Ruger MkIII over to a shop for sale. I can't reverse that and it is technically no longer mine. I'm getting a good price for it.

I am selling it in order to buy a CZ VZ58. I cannot legally keep both, being at a capacity threshold for my safe.

MkIII's are not common here, unlike the States. I doubt one will come up just like that, contrary to what might be other US members' experiences.

Am I making the right choice?

I do want a semi auto rifle and it is my belief that, despite being half the price, the CZ is better quality than a Saiga.
An AR Is just too expensive at almost 4 times the cost of the CZ and twice that of the Saiga.

The CZ's Achilles Heel is that only the 7.62x39 chambering is available here. That is no snub of the ballistics, but more a worry of logistics. The most affordable ammo here is steel cased Barnaul ammo. From Russia. It costs €300/1000rds. Buying 1000 unprimed brass would cost the same

The political upheaval in Ukraine, as we all know, has generated sanctions. I find myself worrying that those sanctions may cut off my only affordable supply of the cartridge. To my knowledge only S&B would remain and I bet the prices would rise. It is already running at €700/1000rds.

.223 would be more accessible, but I don't feel the love for a Saiga and I don't want to sell internal organs to finance an AR.

Finally there is the rifles SHTF status. TFL doesn't do SHTF threads and I believe that this is because fantasy make-believe are not constructive in the firearms community.
The difference being, where I live, with a belligerent nuclear super-power 250KM to the east that has recently abducted a border-guard from Eastern Estonia, I fear a SHTF situation is less make-believe for me.

In the back of my mind I reluctantly consider the possibility that some of my guns may need to insure more than match-points if things turned sour.

Do I build a case for keeping the Ruger, getting the CZ or something else?
Now that I'm on the brink, doubt creeps in.
Thoughts? (Please keep them in my realm of realism :o)
 
By the sound of it I'd say sell.............. All of them buy a ticket out of there and make sure it don't fly over your Ukrainian neighbours turf. Then buy your cz.
Or stay sell the ruger buy the cz and very scrap of ammo existing in your area, build a bunker , become a hermit, grow a beard, and have conversations with a volley ball named Wilson..... That's what I'd do the only rational option really
:eek:;):confused:;)
 
Yes, that's the right choice - there are quite a few better .22 pistols than a Mark3 (named that once that figured out it takes 3 hands to re-assemble it). .22 handguns have very limited usefulness to begin with.

The VZ58 is an excellent weapon - you are right about that.

Full steam ahead, definitely.
 
If you have a rifle that shoots cheaper ammo, you could buy the vz58 (very solid rifle choice for many reasons) and as much x39 ammo as possible now, and more in increments when you have disposable income. Then practice mostly with the other rifle and plan on only taking the vz58 out once in a while to keep fresh and check functionality. When/if this Russia-on-the-March season ends, you will have your vz58 and a cheap source of ammo to feed it. If not, you have something very effective for use in times of unrest.
Minus the 250K from the Bear geographic portion, your issue is similar in the thought process of a lot of people in the US who have made this change and bought 22LR conversion kits for their ARs. Cheap practice ammo for the majority of your range time and a full-caliber version if times become desperate.
 
Thanks for the reassurances.

I think the only additional irritant (if possible invasion weren't enough) is that I am legally limited to 1000 rds in stock per sports weapon....:rolleyes:

I think the best for me is to keep enjoying the Barnaul for now and perhaps look to reloading later so perhaps buy a hundred cases and do some OCW strings to at least know what loads would work in my rifle if I need to turn to that.
 
Seems like a logical choice - best thing to do in that possible SHTF situation is to have a reliable, easilly servicable weapon at your disposal in a caliber that is common to the area. I don't have a VZ-58, but I've heard it's a good choice for those qualities. Too bad you can't keep a .22 as well - 7.62x39 is not a good choice for small game animals…. Can you have an airgun for small game? I don't know what the laws are in your neck of the woods.
 
Can you have an airgun for small game? I don't know what the laws are in your neck of the woods.
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I still have my CZ .22 bolt. That is staying for the time being!!

disposal in a caliber that is common to the area.
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That is the problem. It is not that common.

It is widely available, but the choice is small. If the Russian supplies dropped off the map, it would seriously affect availability and price.
 
Sorry, man - I guess I mis-read the post. What is the range of caliber types you can find? I mean all choices - pistol, rifle, shotgun?
 
I forgot to ask if the intended use is indeed SHTF. Do you have other options where you are, like a pistol caliber carbine or a lever gun?
 
A .22 handgun is great for learning pistol marksmanship,plinking,and potting a rabbit.
Keep your .22 rifle.
I hope you never have to fight.In your political situation,a good battle rifle might be ....the best thing you could have.

If you have need to expend ammunition in serious fashion,I would assume the folks you are shooting at would have 7.62 x 39 they no longer have use for,since,if you are still alive,they are not.

Therefore,7.62x39 might be the easiest to feed should your situation deteriorate.

Think about water purification,Spam,oatmeal,and a case of Scotch (for barter,of course!).

Maybe some first aid supplies.
 
Do you have other options where you are, like a pistol caliber carbine or a lever gun?
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Nope...:(

I hope you never have to fight.In your political situation,a good battle rifle might be ....the best thing you could have.
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You and me both, and it is something I'll heartily avoid, but if push comes to shove, I'd rather have more than sticks!!

Therefore,7.62x39 might be the easiest to feed should your situation deteriorate.
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Is x39 still standard issue in "certain" countries? I thought it had been replaced with something more akin to 5.56...

All in all, I fervently hope that this is me being a drama-queen and the powers that be will grow up and realise that the rest of the population just want to live their lives.
But I am a staunch proponent of "Prepare for the worst and hope for the best".

I swear, world leaders need to pass a "I don't have a massive chip on my shoulder that will push me to hazardous acts of extreme hubris at the expense of my electorate!!" test, before taking office.
 
Sorry to hear that you don't have those options. Apparently, the Russians have switched over to the 5.45 x 39, and don't use the 7.62 x 39 too much anymore. Maybe the thing to do is to find out what the military and your police forces use, and work from there. I'm presuming by "top of the Baltic stack" you mean Estonia - with Estonia being part if NATO, I would think they're using ammo common to NATO forces.
 
All of the first world ComBloc nations have switched to 5.45x39. Only the Third World nations are using it in quantity now.
For anyone considering 7.62x39 as a primary cartridge, this should be taken into consideration. Anybody who might come here is most likely to have 5.45x39 weapons. However, 7.62x39 is still widely available over much of the world, and will remain so for quite some time. So it doesn't need to be discarded, just taken into consideration.
 
I'm presuming by "top of the Baltic stack" you mean Estonia - with Estonia being part if NATO, I would think they're using ammo common to NATO forces.
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Yes. I believe the Defence Force has 5.56 chambered Galils.

I am seriously starting to reconsider this.

I love the CZ. I feel a real connection to this neat, compact, capable rifle. Where it starts to fall apart is that all the regular ammo sources I have checked with stock 7.62x39 (great!), but 95% of what they stock is Barnaul: the very brand that might drop off the shelves if the current economic game of tit for tat continues and the EU either blocks Russian ammo imports or Russia prohibits its export (not so great...).

The price definitely speaks to me, but not having ammo for it would be a bit pointless especially if I needed it in the most fundamental way one needs a firearm. Should I be going AR after all, despite the financial hit?

There is a sale on at the AR shop that stocks the M400 (my best bet AR) and taking into account VZ accessories I'd have to buy to get it where I want it, the difference is down to €500. Still nothing to be sniffed at.

The only other candidate is a Saiga .223 and they don't speak to me. If it were between the Saiga and M400, I'd find the extra to get the AR.

This is really tough. Feels like I have one shot at making the right decision and I don't know which way to go.... :(
 
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@Pond, James Pond

Wisdom from my Platoon Sgt.:

As a young 2nd Lt. Infantry officer in the Marines, my only issue weapon was a Colt .45 pistol when we went to war. I was grousing to my Plt. Sgt. one day about not having a rifle, although i recognized my real weapons were the 3 radiomen who went with me everywhere.

My Plt. Sgt. was a crusty old salt twice my size, older than dirt, from Alabama. He looked at me with injured patience and said: "Lieutenant, if the time ever comes that you need a rifle, there will be plenty of them laying around."




I'd spend your bucks on food, candles, and a way out of Dodge. I suspect the same advice might work in your case.

Just MHO. YMMV
 
Not easy.
I would have a hard time giving up the mark 3. But if that's what you have to do to get a good rifle, I'd go ahead.

The CZ would be a great choice. If you go with the CZ I would recommend keeping it simple, just shoot it. No accessory or optics or anything. Just make sure to always top off your 1000 rounds after each trip to the range in case ammo is suddenly unavailable.

If your more seriously concerned about ammo and you think that 556 is a sure bet, and you want the option to easily mount optics... then you might be stuck with an AR

It sounds like you would prefer the AR anyway... I guess I would say to save every bit of money you can and get the AR.
 
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Doc Intrepid's advice is very sound - if worse comes to worse, you will probably be able to scrounge up gear. Also, if you and your countrymen wind up in a fight with the Russians, would the Estonian military and police forces welcome or discourage armed citizens joining up in resisting an attack? If that's the case, your choice of weapon may not matter much if you can get another as a result of a combat environment - exactly what Doc Intrepid is talking about.
 
Keeping in mind that I'm totally unfamiliar with the firearms market in Estonia, one thing about this thread puzzles me a bit, and I'm curious.
Pond said:
The only other candidate is a Saiga .223 and they don't speak to me. If it were between the Saiga and M400, I'd find the extra to get the AR.
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The Saiga comes from Russia just like the 7.62x39 Barnaul ammo does. Why do you assume that the ammo will become unavailable but the rifles won't?

The U.S. federal gov't has imposed sanctions against the Kalashnikov Concern due to the crisis in Ukraine, thus cutting off the supply of Saiga rifles to the USA; there are a couple of threads about this in the "General Discussion" forum. However, the supply of ammo from the Russian Barnaul and Tula plants is unaffected, at least for the time being. IOW the USA is currently in the opposite situation that you seem to assume will prevail in Estonia. :confused:
 
So we have two different questions here really...

1. Sell the Mark 3 and invest proceeds into "something different", or not? Seems like the consensus is yes.

2. What to invest said proceeds in - VZ58 or other? I'd go with the AR15 in light of your ammo concerns.
 
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