Tikka and Savage rifles (quality)

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I don't work for Tikka

or any rifle company but I guess I get tired of hearing people "boost" inferior rifles as "quality" purchases. I try to be objective about my rifle purchases. I don't believe that one company is better than another but I do believe that companies do target areas of the market to sell to. Savage is a fine company that targets shooters who want to shoot and hunt occasionally or shoot on a budget. As well, Tikka is the "economy" line from Sako - I don't believe in "maximum" bang for the buck idea [esp. when it comes to guns]. Many of these companies have been around for over 50 years [if not way more]. No company survives that long in a free market system unless they can provide value/quality for the dollar.
Anyway, anyone who tries to tell u that a stock Savage 110 is better than a stock Remington 700 is kidding u or is really ignorant. Quality products COST money, sorry but this is a fact, if Savage did not have an appreciable difference in quality to other guns than EVERYONE would buy one unless they were truly stupid. But the reality is they are a product which is well priced and perform ADEQUETELY. I like Savage, they are good guns but realistically they cut corners to make their rifle marketable.
 
Update on trigger quality in Savage 110 Rifles.

I recently had the oportunity to fire a brand new Savage heavy barrel rifle in .308. I was not familier with the new model but it looked like a tatical type rifle by the looks of its stock configuration.

I was amazed at the great trigger pull that it had right out of the box. Since the rifle was not mine I did not get a chance to take it apart and see if the trigger had been changed by Savage or wether they are just paying very close attention to quality control. Either way it was a great trigger and it really suprised me.

By the way the owner put a quality Leupold 20 power scope on it and the first group I shot out of his new rifle was 5 shots at 100 yards into 1/2 inch. Loads were my own consisting of 168 grain Sierra match bullet with 40.5 granis of dupont 4895 with a federal standard large rifle primer.

Lets face it gentlemen you do not get much better than that from an out of the box factory rifle and at a price the working man can afford to live with and from a rifle that is one of the safest on the market in regards to a failed cartridge case.

By the way the three postion safety is also a great safety factor. The gun can be unloaded in complete safety. Guns with two postion safeties are always a risk when you unload them because you must unload them with the safety off.

I have seen more than one Remington go off when the safety was flipped off. I cannot recall if the Tikka has a three postion safety but if it does not that is one more serious strike against owning one.

By the way I am well aware that the Tikka is made from cast steel not cast iron. I used this derogatory term on purpose to express my extreme hatred of all cast steel weapons. I take a traditional forging any day. W.R.
 
Hmmmm what an update!

I guess I better sell all my rifles and get a Savage, W.R. has reported that based off of a sample of 1 Savage rifle (new out of the box, of course) to which he does not know if the trigger has been replaced or monkeyed with that all Savage triggers are now "Improved!". O.K. excellent report!

First off what the hell are you talking about "2 position" vs "3 position" safety? Savages, Remingtons, and Tikkas have 2 position safeties - Winchesters and Mauser based actions have a 3 position safeties. If u are referring to the Remington's ability to operate the bolt when the safety is engaged than yes, the Tikka has as you described it a "2 Position" safety - you cannot operate a the bolt when the safety is engaged. But I have no idea what you are talking about unloading a Remington with the safety off.
Have you ever handled a Remington? You don't need to turn off the safety to unload the 700 series rifles! Just pull the bolt back and Voila the rifle is now unloaded! As I recall The Savage could not open the bolt when the safety was engage - so I guess according to you it is more "unsafe" than a Remington.

As to slamfiring or safety related firing - I have never seen or heard of an incident of it happening except when some "home gunsmith" has fuddle duddled with the trigger group. And this can happen with any type of rifle. Sorry W.R. your arguments don't hold water but it's nice to see such strong customer loyalty, that is something you don't see too often.
 
Glock4Ever,

Wild Romanian was very clear that his experience was with one rifle. He didn't claim that he'd done a lot of research or taken a statistically valid sample of Savage rifles. I appreciated his report. I think about 95% of the reports we read on TFL are individuals reporting their experiences with one or a few samples of the firearm in question. The picking are going to get pretty slim if we have to personally test large numbers of firearms under controlled conditions before we dare report our experiences here.

Doug
 
to Glock4ever

I guess I better sell all my rifles and get a Savage, W.R. has reported that based off of a sample of 1 Savage rifle (new out of the box, of course) to which he does not know if the trigger has been replaced or monkeyed with that all Savage triggers are now "Improved!". O.K. excellent report
Click to expand...

You sure did not pay much attention to what I said. The rifle was brand new out of the box. I cannot make the statement any simpler than that. And no it did not have the trigger messed with in any way. It was a completely stock Savage right from the factory. W.R.
 
To Glock4ever

You don't know much about Remington 700's. The older ones did indeed require you to flip the safety off before you could unload them. If Remington has recently changed the design then I stand corrected. What I am refering to is that once you have a round in the chamber you have to flip the safety off to pull back on the bolt to unload it. That is the point where the gun can fire off accidentally.

By the way Remington has lost a lot of law suites whereby the unmodified factory trigger went off when the safety was disengaged.

Now lets talk real world senarios. Many people will ajust their triggers too light to the point where the gun will fire when the safety is flipped off no matter what the brand of gun we talking about but if you have a 3 postion safety you can put the safety in the middle postion and safely unload the gun when you are removing the round from the chamber. When you have a two postion safety you cannot do this. If you have a round in the chamber you literally must cross your fingers point the gun in a safe direction and then hope it doesn't fire.

Their are some two postion safety guns that do not lock the bolt when it is closed. Then you have the problem of the bolt constantly coming open while you are carring it. You see the two postion safety is a big loser all the way around no matter which type you happen to have.

Many people who are fatiqued, distracted, or just plain under the influence of narcotics or alchohol can easily forget this and bang their goes another tragedy. You have a much better chance with the rifle that has the 3 postion safety under most real world conditons as far as getting that round out of the chamber safely.

Gock4ever if you fail to understand this lengthy reply than I suggest you go to a competent gunsmith and let him visually explain it to you. W.R.
 
I don't know much about Remingtons...

" If Remington has recently changed the design then I stand corrected. What I am refering to is that once you have a round in the chamber you have to flip the safety off to pull back on the bolt to unload it. That is the point where the gun can fire off accidentally."

Well I guess you are right W.R. after taking out my 700 VS and unloading the firearm with the Safety "ON", I have been proven wrong. What does age of the 700 have to do with this safety? My friend has a .270 700 ADL which he bought in the 70s which has the exact same safety as mine. As to your comment about home adjusted triggers READ what MY comments were on that!

"Update on trigger quality in Savage 110 Rifles. ..."

"I was amazed at the great trigger pull that it had right out of the box. Since the rifle was not mine I did not get a chance to take it apart and see if the trigger had been changed by Savage or wether they are just paying very close attention to quality control. Either way it was a great trigger and it really suprised me."

This seems to me a pretty sweeping assessment based on your sample of ONE rifle.

To Doug:
The whole point of this forum is to openly discuss firearms and their good and bad qualities. I am not here to put down Savage or Savage owners but the reality is that Savage is not a high end rifle. No matter what 1 person will try to tell you this is the reality. Romanian seems to have a very limited experience with rifles other than Savage. I personally do not care if he owns one or ten thousand of them but I do have a problem with him creating false information to spread about various rifles manufacturers. Sorry though he posted later that he was using a "derogatory term on purpose to express my [his] extreme hatred of all cast steel weapons" he had created a false image for inexperienced shooters as to the quality of Tikka's rifles.

As to his blatantly ignorant comments as to functions of various rifles has proven that he really does not know what he is talking about. Saying that 700 series rifles are unsafe is a blatant lie - the 700 is the best selling modern bolt action rifle in North America and it is not because the gun is poorly made or unsafe.

I do not think everyone needs to have huge samples of guns to personally handle before making an opinion but there is a MAJOR problem with making an opinion w/o having your facts straight.
 
My Bad...

Sorry you are correct 1982 > have to check with my friend when he bought his 700 but it was a long enough ago that I don't see the relevance of stating something that was changed over 18 years ago.
 
ROFLMAO=big time, thanx for the senate debate.. everyone in theKNOW /knows the savage is better, in the off season it doubles as a #4 iron:p :p :p
oh, yeah, uhh, that's the tikka thats the #4 (cast)iron:p :p :p
thanx all for the chuckle...
 
to Glock4ever

Well Glock since you know nothing about how bad the Remington 700 really is I will educate you. By the way I own quite a few rifles of various manufactures and I am a Master Shooter in NRA High Power Competition.

Why do I mention this, not to brag but to relate some real life experiences on how bad the Remington 700 really is.

I have seen literally dozens of Remington 700's not hold up under continuous use on the National Match courses that I have shot over the years. Here is a run down of them

1. An ureliable feeder.

2. Live rounds that often pop out of the magazine when the bolt is manipulated too quickly or the rifle is not held dead horizontal.

2.b. A lousy push feed system and like all push feed systems it can double feed a cartridge jaming the rifle up tighter than a drum. Contrast this to the 98 Mauser or orginal Model 70 Winchester that have a controlled feed mechanism.

3. An enclosed trigger mechanism that traps dirt and moisture and causes malfuctions. Unlike the Model 70 Winchester or Orignial Mauser the dirt cannot fall away from the trigger. The Winchester and Mauser have an open face trigger system that is superior in regards to its reliability.

4. The Remington 700 was a failure in the Vietnam Conflict in terms of reliablity. See Peter Senech's books on the 700.

5. The Remington 700 has had its extractor changed 3 times that I know of and I have seen dozens break. When they break you cannot replace them yourself because they are riveted in. It means an expensive trip back to the factory.

6. AS I already mentioned the original Remington 700 had a dangerous two position safety than hurt a lot of people and there are plenty of these rifles on the used market so beware of them if you purchase one.

7. I have personally known people that were injured when a cartridge case let loose in a Remington 700. Its gas escape system is no system at all period.

Ok expert. Lets see you talk your way out of this one. I am armed with the facts and with experience. I do not see you armed with much except hot air. W.R.
 
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to Glock4ever

As to his blatantly ignorant comments as to functions of various rifles has proven that he really does not know what he is talking about. Saying that 700 series rifles are unsafe is a blatant lie - the 700 is the best selling modern bolt action rifle in North America and it is not because the gun is poorly made or unsafe.
Click to expand...

Talk about ignorant statements. If you said that to several of my friends who were hurt by Remington 700's when they blew up they would make sure that you would not stay healthy very long.

By the way I see exactly no technical or real life experiences coming from your keyboard only know it all criticism.

I report on real life experiences while you proclaim to the world how knowlegeable you are but so far I have read no knowlege in any of your replies. W.R.
 
My first bolt rifle was a savage 110 model b made in the 70's. To this day, with the bluing worn and scratched and the stock dinged will still shoot a 3/4 inch group at 100 yards.

My second bolt rifle was a Savage 116. I like Savage. And yes I looked hard at winchesters, rugers and remingtons too.

I only have 2 complaints, the 116 has a heavier trigger than the 110 made in the 70's, well thats litigation for you. 2 lb triggers are fine for benchrest shooting but i think thats too light for carrying in the woods.
The 2nd complaint I have is the synthetic stock is a little soft for my taste. Still the rifle shoots 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards all day long.

I have NEVER seen a savage with a 3 position saftey, not even the safari express model.

All major brands have "starter models" ie winchester model 70 "ranger" Savage model 114 "package gun" or the Tikka line of Sako.

Another rifle you may consider is a CZ 550 american, nice fit and finish with a mauser action. CZ is definitely a bargain esp. if you want a "heavy" caliber rifle.
 
I’ve got a Savage 110 and it seems to have a three-position safety. All the way forward and it’s on “fire.” All the way back, it’s on “safe” and and the bolt’s locked in place. Halfway in-between, you can operate the bolt, but the striker won’t release. Don't know if it's supposed to do this by design, but it does.
 
Actually I much prefer the Winchester trigger to the Remington trigger. I find them much easier to work on. And normally can be adjusted to a fantastic trigger with little or no polishing work.
 
The military continues to use variations of Rem. 700's for sniper rifles. Try to find a Savage in one of the U.S. sniper units.
Click to expand...

I see you are one of the masses of people who think that the military knows what it is doing when it adopts small arms.

The facts are that they know very little about them and often choose inferior designed weapons for adoption in the military.

The reason the Remington was chosen for a service rifle is that Winchester had descontinued the original Model 70 and the clerks in the armed services had heard a rumor that the new model 70 was having problems so they decided to thumb through their Sears and Roebuck catalogs and pick out another major name brand rifle. I am joking a little but I am not far from the real truth about the adoption of it.

I do not have time tonight to educate you as to the entire history of the Remington 700's adoption or its use in today's military but I will say the armed services as far as small arms procurement is concerned has made some major blunders in the last 30 years. We all know the sorry history of the M16, and the Beretta but far fewer people are aware of the lousy history of the Model 700 Remington in today's military.

The military would have indeed been better off sticking with the Model 70 Winchester even if they had chosen the new model and it would have also had a better rifle with the Savage 110. W.R.
 
What rifle did Carlos Hathcock take to the field? I'm thinking that the answer to that question would provide a little insight. Don't you?
 
Let me preface this by saying I am not a gunsmith, nor do I play one on TV ...

However, I am President of one of the largest gun clubs in Western Australia. We shoot centrefires in two matches: field rifle and 3-positional (and casual benchrest).

Preferred actions are Remington or Sako (or even CZ) in .222 or, lately, .223, 6 mm PPC or a variant thereof. Our safety regulations mean safety catches are irrelevant -- the firearm is unloaded and cleared, or ready to fire, period.

BUT -- all shooters agree -- the Remington extractor is inferior and breaks at most inopportune times with no warning. Preferred option is to have it replaced with a Sako extractor (about $165). AFAIK, all club members have taken that option, bar one -- and she will change over when hers breaks.

No triggers are left as the factory made them. They are either tweaked by a gunsmith or replaced. Weights range from 2 oz to about 1 lb.

Savages have traditionally been looked down on because they "look ugly" and are "rough as guts". However, the three members with late-model Savages (with trigger jobs) are starting to draw a lot of favourable attention because the damn things just plain shoot. Off the bench, with match-grade handloads, consistent groups from .25 to .5 are the norm (and expected in our match).

No, Im not saying they are "better" than the others -- certainly not in finish. But they shoot just as well, and so far are equally reliable. And that's what we look for. (The 1 in 9 twist also gains favour for heavier bullets at long range or in wind vs the "standard" twist.)

Pricewise -- a new Sako or Remington H/B will set us back just a touch under $2000 -- a new Savage (10fp) is about $1250. That leaves a fair wad of small change for "tweaks", ammo, trigger etc. Our Club armourer builds custom glass stocks for $250, including fitting, bedding etc. A SSS trigger is, unfortunately, expensive here -- $250.

Horses for courses, folks. If there is any brand which has, so far, not been "up to scratch" it would be Ruger. (Asbestos suit on :D )

Bruce
 
Bruce, good points! And I'd put the Ruger on the bottom of my list as well.

Ankle, tell us how that thing shoots!
 
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