Tight patterns
- Thread starter TomNJVA
- Start date
Limnophile
New member
The fact that most such reports omit information critical to assess such a group's significance is telling. With a small sample size (eg, 5 shots), one can generate a tight group every so often on chance alone. Anyone who, say, shoots five 5-shot groups then reports only the tightest is deluding mostly himself. Without full disclosure results are meaningless.
Before I obtained my carry pistols I was mostly a handgun plinker, so not very concerned about precision. So when precision became relevant to me, I had in my mind the rifle benchrest gold standard of 1 minute of angle (moa), or a 1.047-in, 5-shot group at 100 yd. Well, I was, of course, disappointed with my off-hand pistol performance by that standard. That sent me scouring for relevant pistol performance standards.
The gold standard for semiautos seems to be a 2-in group at 50 yd (1-in at 25 yd), or 3.8 moa; but, this is from a Ransom rest. You can buy a custom pistol guaranteed to 1.5-in at 50 yd (0.75-in at 25 yd), or 2.9 moa. But a Ransom rest tells us about the gun, not the entire system -- gun and shooter. For defensive purposes, the shooter is generally the critical factor in determining precision, as most guns are much more precise than we are.
I collected varoious precision benchmarks on a spreadsheet, which I seem to have organized out of existence. As I recall, I concluded that a reasonable precision goal for off-hand shooting is 30 moa, or 7.9-in at 25 yd. I think I derived this from the size of the thoracic -0 portion of the IDPA target and an upper bound distance for that target. This would be an ideal goal for rapid fire, so a reasonable goal for slow fire at the range should be tighter.
Most of the time at the range I practiced pointing the HK at the target and firing as in a SHTF situation. I practiced both torso and head shots.
I'll have a few flyers from the rounds but scores around 80% vital hits. Each round are 10 shots with 7 shots to torso and 3 to head at 2-1 rotations.
The real test is not to rapid fire while under fire but shoot fast.
I'll have a few flyers from the rounds but scores around 80% vital hits. Each round are 10 shots with 7 shots to torso and 3 to head at 2-1 rotations.
The real test is not to rapid fire while under fire but shoot fast.
I used my dodge ram to get my last hog. Next time I would like to try the pistol method too.
Don't know where you live, but shoot all of them you can. They have gone nocturnal out on my pastures and there is too much brush to night hunt. Hope to spend mucho time hunting them when I retire.groups
for reference....as a follow up to JohnSka's earlier post.
The current national record for Bullseye slowfire at 50 yards (fired one hand unsupported) is for 20 shots. It is 200-11X. One of the oldest pistol records, it was shot by one B.D. Harmon in 1982. The second and third place scores are both 199-8X.
Pete
for reference....as a follow up to JohnSka's earlier post.
The current national record for Bullseye slowfire at 50 yards (fired one hand unsupported) is for 20 shots. It is 200-11X. One of the oldest pistol records, it was shot by one B.D. Harmon in 1982. The second and third place scores are both 199-8X.
Pete
Doc Holliday 1950
New member
I like Oysterboy's last response. Also, most of the people I shoot with at 25 yes. are standing freestyle not sitting down with a pillow or such.
I see, with me, that at 15 yards I frequently shooting in a 4 to 5 inch pattern. Sometimes when I'm really relaxed that I shoot in a 2-3 inch pattern. I like to compete with myself.
Sometimes I shoot at 25 yards, but have trouble seeing that far. LOL.But I hit my target.
For me, at 5 to 7 yards, that 97% of the time I hit at the area that I want to.
All of these shots are stoppers, I've been told that by the Range Master where I shoot that after adjusting my grip slightly, I became more accurate. It's like Golf.
You pick up bad habits and only through good instruction and practice can you
improve.
Doc
I see, with me, that at 15 yards I frequently shooting in a 4 to 5 inch pattern. Sometimes when I'm really relaxed that I shoot in a 2-3 inch pattern. I like to compete with myself.
Sometimes I shoot at 25 yards, but have trouble seeing that far. LOL.But I hit my target.
For me, at 5 to 7 yards, that 97% of the time I hit at the area that I want to.
All of these shots are stoppers, I've been told that by the Range Master where I shoot that after adjusting my grip slightly, I became more accurate. It's like Golf.
You pick up bad habits and only through good instruction and practice can you
improve.
Doc
groups
This is very true. Hopefully, though, the shooter who can shoot those tightly grouped slowfire targets at 50 yards will have less spread of "under stress" groups fired at 5.
My own feeling is that I am better off practicing at longer distances.....If I can hit it at 25 or 50, I can probably hit it at 3, 5, or 7.
This is very true. Hopefully, though, the shooter who can shoot those tightly grouped slowfire targets at 50 yards will have less spread of "under stress" groups fired at 5.
My own feeling is that I am better off practicing at longer distances.....If I can hit it at 25 or 50, I can probably hit it at 3, 5, or 7.
darkgael said:
Seconded. If I can hit the 4" plate target at 25 yards, a great big A-zone or -0 (or vital zone) at 6 yards is almost an afterthought.
As far as accuracy goes, at 25-yards I can on occasion shoot a 3" group with every pistol I own. In fact, I consider being able to hit the head box of an IPSC or IDPA silhouette target at 25-yards to be an acceptable standard when using a mid-size or larger semi-auto or revolver (think Glock 19 size on up). And that area is larger than 3" across.
In my mind, there is another point to being able to shoot "better" than necessary. And that's stress/buzzer brain. Your accuracy doesn't improve when you're now dealing with more stress than standing on the line at a square range impressing your buddies. Being able to hit a target half the size is a good thing when your accuracy has suddenly degraded by 100%. Meaning: if you can barely hold the 8.5x11" target on a sunny Saturday afternoon after lunch, you're not going to achieve a high hit percentage when you're trying to hit the same target when cold, hungry and now tracking 20 other variables.
We all have to remember that handgun accuracy is a very relative thing and depends on what kind of gun, the consistency of the ammo, the position used, the shooting conditions, the range, the skill of the shooter and several other factors.
Thirty-five years ago, when I was heavily into handgun metallic silhouette, the better shooters (AAA and International class) could shoot 8-12” groups at 200 meters (220 yards) with their revolvers and 3-6” groups with their Production and Unlimited guns, all of which were equipped with iron sights. That kind of shooting was considered routine.
The Production guns were generally T/C Contenders chambered for one of the TCU cartridges and the Unlimited guns were bolt action single-shots. They were fired from a variation on the very steady “Creedmore” position.
That kind of accuracy relates to hunting, but not at all to any kind of defensive shooting. But the skills needed to shoot a 4” group at 200m with an open-sight handgun – sight alignment, trigger control, follow-through – are very definitely related to accurate shooting at any distance.
Those skills are also difficult to master with a centerfire handgun, due to recoil and blast. That’s why I recommend that new shooters who are serious about learning the game buy a good quality pellet pistol like the Daisy 717. There’s zero recoil, almost no noise, the ammo is almost free and you can shoot it indoors with a cheap bullet trap or a box of magazines. The $165 price pays for itself in no time in ammo costs and range fees.
When you get to where you can keep 5 shots inside the border of a 1” target paster at 20 feet, your attitude toward acceptable handgun accuracy will be ‘way different from what it is now.
Thirty-five years ago, when I was heavily into handgun metallic silhouette, the better shooters (AAA and International class) could shoot 8-12” groups at 200 meters (220 yards) with their revolvers and 3-6” groups with their Production and Unlimited guns, all of which were equipped with iron sights. That kind of shooting was considered routine.
The Production guns were generally T/C Contenders chambered for one of the TCU cartridges and the Unlimited guns were bolt action single-shots. They were fired from a variation on the very steady “Creedmore” position.
That kind of accuracy relates to hunting, but not at all to any kind of defensive shooting. But the skills needed to shoot a 4” group at 200m with an open-sight handgun – sight alignment, trigger control, follow-through – are very definitely related to accurate shooting at any distance.
Those skills are also difficult to master with a centerfire handgun, due to recoil and blast. That’s why I recommend that new shooters who are serious about learning the game buy a good quality pellet pistol like the Daisy 717. There’s zero recoil, almost no noise, the ammo is almost free and you can shoot it indoors with a cheap bullet trap or a box of magazines. The $165 price pays for itself in no time in ammo costs and range fees.
When you get to where you can keep 5 shots inside the border of a 1” target paster at 20 feet, your attitude toward acceptable handgun accuracy will be ‘way different from what it is now.