Tight patterns

T

TomNJVA

New member
I often read people boasting of 2" or 3" patterns at 25 yards with handguns. When people compare such patterns, are they talking about from a free standing position, such as the Isosceles and Weaver stances, thus testing both their skill and the handgun's accuracy? Or are they talking about shooting with a braced or secured handgun, thus testing just the gun's accuracy? If it's free standing I'm impressed, and have a lot more practicing to do.

TomNJVA
 
Well, first of all it’s not a pattern, it’s a group. Shotguns shoot patterns.
The majority of good-to-excellent pistol shooters I know – and there are a lot of them - can put 5 or 6 shots into a 2-3” group at 25 yds on demand from a 2 hand standing position.
 
I remember a motorcycle magazine in the late ‘60’s that was asked by a reader how come he was unable to get the top speeds reported in the magazine’s articles about the motorcycles.

They replied that it was probably due to the high-geared-nitrous-oxide-burning-turbo-charged typewriters used by their reporters.

Same thing going on here.

Best way to find out if you’re any good is join a league and shoot some competition. If you practice you’ll probably come in some place in the middle of the pack WHICH IS NOT BAD.

Oh, and japle gave you a nice correction. Shrug. Might as well get the terminology correct. Doesn't cost any more.
 
A good handgun shot with a good equipment and ammo that the gun likes can probably get down around the 3" mark for 5 shot groups at 25 yards without too much trouble. In my experience, not every handgun will shoot that well and even the ones that will might not do it with just any ammo you grab.

While it's common for this kind of thread to descend into innuendo and scoffing, the ability to make 5 shot groups of 3" or so, at 25 yards, shot two handed, isn't superhuman at all.

To get a little perspective, the 10 ring on the slow-fire 50 yard target in Bullseye pistol is 3.36" in diameter. It's not unheard of for the better competitors to occasionally shoot all 10s--all shots in or touching to 10 ring. And remember, Bullseye is shot one-handed and there are 10 shots fired on the slow-fire target.

Of course, shooting a 3" 5 shot group at 25 yards once per range trip out of several attempts, or once every few range trips isn't the same thing as every group being that good. I just checked my desk and there are 6 targets that I saved from fairly recent range trips that show groups that good or better--but there's a reason I saved them and not all the others. :D
 
G.Willikers said "If I want to impress folks with my shooting, I put the holes in the targets before getting to the range."

I've tried that but they don't really look like bullet holes.

If I shoot from close enough to get those impressive groups, I also get funny looking scorch marks on the target.
 
Like everybody else, I like "pretty" targets. You know, you're shooting off sandbags at 25 yards and you pull off a five-shot one-ragged-hole group while the rest are 2" or so.

The target is showed off, revered, and the gun granted mythical status. Much the same happens when firing off-hand. These are the targets that get posted.

To me these occasional targets matter little, even if they are honest. If you shoot enough they are going to happen. There's days when it seems you can't miss, just as there are those days when you feel you can't hit the proverbial Buick.

Nobody is 100%. If you are then your target's too big or the range too close and you are accomplishing nothing.

We all pull one occasionally for whatever reason. I prefer to track aggregate accuracy. Pick a range, pick a target size. Score your hits as a percentage. Keep a running average. After a few thousand rounds you'll have a pretty good idea how consistent you are. You can also tell if you're making real progress.

When you get well into the 90% hit rate, reduce the size of the target or increase the range.

We (me and others) came up with this as a method to compare a group of shooters. We started comparing each other and each range trip there was always a different winner, we were all pretty close in skill. It was hard to tell who was better. We were wondering more out of curiosity than competition.

There's some advantages. It doesn't matter how many rounds you fire at a target, so you don't have to change them that often. You can configure your target however you like just as long as there's a ring of the standardized size. If you have shooters shooting at different distances due to range restrictions you can even compensate for the different distances. For example 6" / 25 (yards) = 0.24 * 15 (yards) = 3.6" @ 15 yards. If you re-size your targets the same you'll even have the same sight picture.

It also gives you a good way of comparing one gun to another. For example, over 2,000 rounds I've shot my High Standard only slightly better than my S&W 22a, which was a bit of a surprise.

From what I read on the internet I'm not a very good shot. But somehow I'm better than most at the range. Go figure.
 
I do accuracy testing for a living.

I don't personally believe it's possible to get the best test of a given gun's accuracy potential free-standing.

ALL of my accuracy work, to determine what I think is probably about 99% of the best a gun can do (aside from using a Ransom Rest), is benched, with me sitting as tight & still as I can & the gun ditto.

Standing, I'm just not steady enough to make any results mean anything.
Denis
 
If I want to impress folks with my shooting, I put the holes in the targets before getting to the range.
Click to expand...

At this point in life, I can barely even see a 25 yard target without a scope. :(
(goes off to tell the kids to get off his lawn).
 
Awhile ago, a young neighbor invited me to tag along to the local range with himself and some friends.
Bless his generous soul.
Anyhow, he was quite impressed with my offhand pistol shooting groups at 25 yards.
I thanked him for the compliment but neglected to tell him the truth.
That nice group was not where I thought I was aiming.
Heck, legends have been based on less. :)
 
From my perspective...

Bulls Eye Accuracy / 3" at 25 yds is a skill that I don't have much desire to fine tune. While I have 4 or 5 guns that are well made and come with 1" guarantees at 25 yds.../ in my hands, with my poor eyes these days at 65 yrs old plus ...I just can't do it. I know some of my guns will do that fairly easily ....and some of my buddies can shoot that well...but its not my cup of tea...and its not why I like shooting.

I practice and enjoy drawing and shooting handguns to "Tactical Accuracy" roughly center chest and an 8 1/2" by 11" rectangle...at a time standard that adds a little stress...like draw and fire 3 shots in under 3 sec. Or draw and fire 3 - Speed Reload - fire 3...in under 7 sec...( acceptable training standards for a Class B shooter - more or less )/ at a Tactical Distance of between 6 - 10 yds.

I do subscribe to the idea that you should be able to shoot a 2" group say at 7 - 10 yds ( 5 shots ) before you start your range training day ....and after you've run your drills of 3 or 4 boxes...run that slow fire drill again for a 2" group at 7 - 10 yds. Sounds easy - but its not..! So I save 15 rds when I'm done to run that drill with my 5" all steel 1911...when I'm done - and evaluate myself. Some days I can - some days I can't...

But that's why we go to the range - and practice !
 
Three at 25 yds, one at 20 yds, two-hand standing.
And I’m a long way from the best pistol shot I know.









I don't claim to be able to do that every time!!
 
Wow - you guys are good! Thanks for correcting my terminology - I knew it was called a "group" but must have had shotguns on my mind.

At 65 years young my hands aren't as steady as when I was on the varsity rifle team in college, and my eye sight isn't as good either. But then since my handguns are intended for short range self defense I guess a 6" grouping at 20 yards isn't so bad. Once the weather warms a bit I'll have to practice more - fortunately I have 25 acres in the beautiful Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia and don't need to visit a range.

TomNJVA
 
I shoot at 8 to 10 yards and get 4" groups consistent with my HK USP 9mm. That's the best I'm gonna get but I probably will do better when I get new glasses. :p
 
I am certainly appreciative of shooters and their firearms with obtaining tight groupings. I also hope they are capable of hitting different spot since I do not see the need to hit the same spot time after time in a bad situation. What greater good is it to put another bullet in the hole you just put in a dangerous human/animal. It might be better to put the skill of a good marksman into use by hitting several vital areas.

I always thought it important for a shooter to demonstrate their capability by hitting a moving target. I used to practice this as often as I could with a swinging target or with clay pigeons and not just with shotguns. I still do from time to time but my strike rate is way down due to reaction time as I age. Not sure how many ranges provide for such unless it is a shotgun activity. I do a vast majority of my shooting in the field.
 
...I do not see the need to hit the same spot time after time in a bad situation. What greater good is it to put another bullet in the hole you just put in a dangerous human/animal...
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I suspect that there's absolutely zero need to be concerned about the fact that a person shooting very slowly under ideal conditions is making groups that are very small.

I strongly suspect that the stress of being in danger of dying combined with the difficulty of hitting a moving target while likely moving yourself will take those nice, tight groups, and spread them out a good deal on the target. Heck, some of the shots might not even connect at all.

That said, it is true that shooting very slowly shouldn't be the only practice done if a person is also concerned about self-defense. Accuracy is very important in a self-defense scenario; but if it takes you 30 seconds to get off your first shot, it probably won't make any difference how accurate it is unless your opponent is similarly slow to react.
 
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