tight bolt close

308Loader
Sorry I didn't get back sooner . On the stripped bolt is not a safety thing , it's you have a better feel of the sized case , your fired unsized case chambered in your rifle you will feel resistance when closing the bolt in most cases . I set my die high size then chamber that case . I slowly size down the case, each time the bolt will lower with less resistance as the case sizes to your chamber , to a point where it will close fully with a slight resistance , that would be zero headspace , size down alittle more your bolt will close with no resistance . That would be .001 headspace , it takes some time . I do the same for ogive to jump or jam . If your case isn't sized for proper consistent headspace your jump or jam measurement will be all over the place when measuring from base ( case head ) to ogive . Once you know the measurements I use the RCBS Precision Mic to check the sizing for both headspace an ogive . I like .001 for headspace and .002 for jump . Total of .003 wiggle room . To really confused things my cases would expand no lengthen , so I could chamber a fired round without sizing . When I full length sized the case it would get longer , tried neck sizing but full length sizing is more accurate all around for me. The comparators are good but I like the PM much better. Hope I didn't drive you mad with my explanation . I'm better showing the explaining .

Chris
 
1. Rim Expansion.
Rims expand with firing.
Rims get hammered out by extractors, by ejectors.

If you see extractor marks on the rim, or ejector marks on the headstamp surface, the brass MUST go somewhere.
After just a firing or two, you will notice the headstamp letters/numbers get a lot less 'Sharp', and sometimes even noticably shallower.
Avian, the brass MUST go somewhere...

Case gauges aren't very accurate. They are fine for 'Sloppy' chamber ammo, but aren't super accurate.
The 'Maximum' allowable in that gauge might be over size for your chamber/bolt.

Look for brass 'Rub' on the bolt face. There should be a fairly wide, fairly even 'O' on the bolt face.
The primer being inset from case head, there should be a clean, No Brass circle the size of the primer pocket centered around the firing pin opening.

There should be a No Brass ring around the outside of the bolt face where the case head has a beveled edge.

If the brass rub is MUCH more pronounced on top or sides, the bolt face isn't lapped square with the chamber.

The RIM around the bolt face, the pocket that centers the case in the bolt, has a lot of brass rub on the INSIDE, you have oversize case heads, or you have an undersized bolt rim.
Oversize brass or undersized rim will cause interference and excessive run when the bolt gets closer, and only when the handle is being moved down to lock.

Once the brass gets wedged into the rim on the bolt, it will 'POP' and throw out fairly hard when you eject.
Depending on the ejector (spring & pin vs. fixed block ejector in receiver) you may be able to wedge a case/cartridge on the bolt when it's out of the firearm.
(Spring/pin ejectors won't allow this, if it's a spring pin and the case wedges you have an issue)

There will usually be a brass rub on the bottom of the bolt rim face, this is natural since the bolt pushes the round into the chamber and rounds don't always feed smoothly, particularly short action rounds like .308 Win.
 
2. Lower Case Bloat/Swelling.

Case pressure spikes really quickly, much faster than the bullet can get moving to relieve the pressure.
This will bloat the lower case, virtually everyone finds bloat in the solid part of the case head & hollow powder chamber space, right along with case walls...

The problem with this is, the case head (which extends above extraction groove), and the bottom of the powder chamber has thicker walls because of rounded lower powder space walls...
This is a LOT of brass that expands!

To further complicate things, top down dies can't reach the lower case bloat/swelling.
If the chamber is opened up to allow for chambering a bloated case, the case fits back in the chamber.
If the chamber walls are properly sized (no wobble in the chamber cutting tool) the bloated case won't want to fit into the chamber.

Top down dies can't reach this area of the case. Period.
The case holder has a shoulder, solid steel, that extends up above the extraction rim.
This makes the rim, the extraction groove & the lower part of the powder chamber a NO-GO zone for common top down dies.

The bottom of top down dies are tapered/flaired/rounded to guide the brass into the die.
That flair/rounded area is larger than where the case wall needs to be bent to, so it doesn't resize the case.

The fastest, but most expensive way to reshape/resize this lower case is a case roller machine (Case Pro). Specifically sized 'FLAT' die plates roll the case walls down low and push the brass of the rim, restore the groove and resize the lower case head/powder chamber.
This takes tremendous pressure, so common dies wouldn't be able to do this even if you had a die that reached all the way to the headstamp surface.

The 'Old School' method is to use a .30-06 die & dedicated case holder on a .308 Win case.
With a repurposed .30-06 die and a 'Shaved Down' (lapped or surface ground) case holder, you can reach down the case a little farther to push more (but not all) of the lower bloat out.

Removing material from the top of the case holder, or some slight removal from the bottom of the .30-06 die let's you resize the bottom of the case farther down WITHOUT moving the shoulder back at the same time...
Forcing the brass farther into a .308 die to reduce the bloat WILL move the shoulder further back. Period.
Using a .30-06 die, the shoulder is much higher up, never contacts the shoulder on a .308 Win brass.

Since both the case holder & .30-06 dies are 'Cheap', they sure beat the cost of a case roller!

Depending on which version of case drawing you see,
The case just above the extraction groove,
.308 Win, 0.470x"
.30-06 Springfield, 0.469x"
At less than 0.0005" difference, you can see why a .30-06 die allows you to size, or slightly undersized YOUR brass to specifically fit YOUR chamber.
*Slightly* undersized dies might just be the 'Bump' you are looking for to properly size the lower part of the case before you set the shoulder back with a .308 Win die.
 
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3. I see significant 'Issues' with the pictures above showing headspace 'Go/NoGo' gauges and the Datum line adapter shown.

The first, and biggest issue is the Datum line adapter itself.
This is a 'comparator' adapter, not an absloute measurement adapter.
The hole MUST BE EXACTLY 0.400". Zero tolerance here.

The face of the adapter MUST he square to the hole. If the hole is drilled even slightly at an angle to the face,you can't get an absloute reading.

There can't be any champfer, radius etc. Going into the hole.
This will allow the case to sink farther into the adapter, screwing up any chance of an absloute reading.
And, with a radius/champfer on the adapter, the name of the caliper CAN NOT reach the 0.400" portion of the adapter, so no way to zero the caliper.

Using a 'Go/NoGo' gauge ASSUMES you have a chamber shoulder that is cut at EXACTLY the same angle,
AND, again, this is a headspace gauge, no way to tell when you reach EXACTLY 0.400" diameter part of the shoulder taper, so again, no way to zero exactly to compensate for taper/radius/champfer of the adapter.

The ONLY way to get an accurate adapter is to have one turned at a local jobber machine shop.
It MUST be lathe turned, both to get a flat face,and by drilling on a lathe you will get a perfectly square bore to the face.
Lathe turning also allows for an EXACT 0.400" bore (by precise reaming or honing).
A jobber machine shop will have the measuring tools necessary for measuring an exact 0.400" +/- nothing bore.

With this adapter, square face to bore, exactly 0.400" bore, NO TAPER/RADIUS/CHAMPFER, you can get a direct read & absloute measurement.

Now, with the method shown above, you are paying for the adapter, a set of 'Go/NoGo' gauges.
This is roughly what you would pay for a jobber shop built adapter, maybe less...

With the adapter shown above, the best you can hope for is a 'Relative' measurement, a 'comparator' at best. This is basically allowing you to compare one brass to another (of the 'Go/NoGo' gauge).
If you aren't worried about 0.005"-0.010" off in the reading when you average in the usual resolution/slop in most cheap calipers, the above shown gadget will work.

Just don't confuse a 'comparator' with an absloute read tool.

.....

Now, the Datum Length is from head stamp surface of the case to the 0.400" Datum Line on the case shoulder.
This length MUST be less than the closed bolt face to Datum line on the shoulder of the CHAMBER (closed bolt to Datum line on CHAMBER shoulder being defined as 'Headspace' since only the chamber has 'Headspace')

With a comparator and a fired brass, you CAN roughly figure out where the shoulder needs to be on the case.

After elminates rim or lower case bloat, you can start on Datum length issues to ensure your shoulder is in the correct location. Without removing rim/case bloat FIRST, you can't tell what's causing the drag when the bolt is closed.
This separates the two issues, allowing you to scientifically and systematically remove issues one at a time, in order, to find exactly the issue, and to make brass that fits the chamber YOU have.
 
5. Neck sizing issues.

Last first when figuring out 'Issues'..
Take the decapping rod/neck sizing ball out of your die, size a few brass with the neck crunched down.
You can even trim them a little short to eliminate both length & diameter issues.

Try chambering the cases, see if the bolt gives excessive resistance.
If you still have resistance, the neck size/length wasn't the issue.

These cases will be used to find the issue... They are not wasted.

.....

Before you go much farther, review your crimp!
Over crimping is the #1 issue with chamberings generally.
Excessive roll crimp will buckle the shoulder outwards, and this will cause your complaint.


If you don't crimp, this obviously isn't the issue...

There is about zero reason to crimp a bolt rifle round.
Virtually 100% of bullet movement can be eliminated in bolt rifles simply by reducing the diameter of the sizer ball in the decap/resize rod.
Simply remove rod from die, use lapping compound on a piece of leather, chuck the rod up in a drill motor and lap the ball down SLIGHTLY, check for reduction and load a few test round.

When you reduce the neck diameter, you INCREASE the grip the case gets on the bullet.
It's that simple...

......

Once necks are reduced in size, and shortened, these cases will be perfect for checking case diameter first, then getting your Datum length correct for your headspace.
 
Hey new to the forum. Not an expert here but have been reloading for about 15 years. And I'm not trying to insult your or anyones intelligence. All these responses are very enlightening and educated but 308loader have you checked the chamber for any type of foriegn material? Had a buddies brand new Remy not chamber factory rounds and found metal grit in the chamber from the scope base holes I'm assuming that wasnt cleaned out well. Not trying to insult just a thought. As a maintenance guy by trade sometimes the easy stuff gets overlooked.
 
Removing material from the top of the case holder, or some slight removal from the bottom of the .30-06 die let's you resize the bottom of the case farther down WITHOUT moving the shoulder back at the same time...
Forcing the brass farther into a .308 die to reduce the bloat WILL move the shoulder further back. Period.
Using a .30-06 die, the shoulder is much higher up, never contacts the shoulder on a .308 Win brass.


Jeep hammer, your are in luck, I am the only reloader that 'knows' what your just said.

F. Guffey
 
Wow, nice stuff Jeephammer. Everything you said makes good sense and explains things in a very understandable manner. Thanks for this, a good learning session.
 
Once the neck is squeezed in and NOT expanded, and the brass is trimmed back a little so neck issues are excluded,
Then it's usually feeler gauges under the brass to see if it's a side wall/shoulder issue...

When loading for a specific rifle, I have ZERO reservations about buying common dies and modifying the dies to fit the rifle. In fact, I encourage it.
$40 or $60 worth of common dies to get brass/rounds that specifically for your favorite shooter is cheap compared to several hundred dollars worth of 'Competition' dies to make rounds for that one specific rifle...
For rifles I own that have specific requirements, the dies set right behind the rifle in the safe.
I know if I have that rifle out, I'm going to reload the brass, so when the rifle goes back in the rack the dies come out, and that also keeps them from getting mixed in with other dies, case holders, etc.
The ammo for that specific rifle usually sits on the die box behind the rifle also.

.30-06 die is not by any means a perfect 'Bulge Buster', but it will push the bulge back in slightly further down without screwing up the shoulder.

The case holders seem to get thicker above the floor plate all the time...
This is a DEAD STOP for the die, no amount of screwing the die down, or 'Over Camming' the press will overcome a dead stop, you are only overstressing the press for no good reason...

The stupid/easy way to tell if it's a shoulder/case bloat issue is to stick feeler gauges between the brass & case holder.
This will bump the shoulder back AND push the case in a little more.
This narrows it to two issues you need to look at instead of 5.

I don't sell it as a 'Fix All', but it does narrow things down...

Sizing the body, especially lower body on .308 brass with a .30-06 die is an old loaders trick.
Most cases have a 'Parent' case they started from, parent usually being older & longer than the current version.
We .308 shooters just lucked out with a super common .30-06 dies, which are cheap and make for an excellent lower case sizer without screwing up the shoulder.

.308 & .30-06 have a taper to the case, so taking a little off the bottom of the .30-06 'Bulge Buster' die will allow you to undersize the brass if you have a REALLY tight chamber without screwing up the shoulder.
-- I ALWAYS use feeler gauges under the case if the factory .30-06 die doesn't do it out of the box.
This tells you if it's case holder or die reach/mouth profile.
-- I *Usually* shave the top of the shell holder when a .30-06 die doesn't do the job out of the box.
No sense in modifying the .30-06 die until you KNOW where the problem is...

A case roller (like a Case Pro 100) is as close to a perfect solution as is commonly available for lower cases, extraction rims & grooves, etc., But not everyone wants to shell out $1,200+ for a case roller!
Just hearing $1,200+ makes most home loaders shudder and I don't blame them!
It takes a LONG TIME at 200 or 300 rounds a year to see a reasonable cost/benefit return!
If $3 case holder & $20 .30-06 die does it for you, no need in more expensive equipment...

I ALWAYS come back around to the neck...
The ONLY reason for an 'Expander' ball is to drag brass up when the case has been excessively stretched, or if the neck sizer hole in the die is too small.

The big idea (and it was a HUGE idea!) Is when the ball enters the stretched & bloated case, the case is still stretched & bloated...
When you push swollen walls back in, the brass has to go somewhere.
When the stretched length is too long, and the shoulder in the dies pushes brass up, it closes down the neck a little.

It's metalworking basics.
When the case stretches in any direction, the brass gets thinner.
When the case is resized, the case walls can't get thicker, so the excess brass is forced UP, the only direction it can go...

When the shoulder is bumped back, the excess brass follows the shoulder in the die, moving up.
This closes down the neck hole right at the top bend of the shoulder.
The expander ball pulls that excess brass up into the neck where it can be trimmed away.

Guys that fire form, then neck size only have this figured out, they don't undersized the brass in the first place so it stretches even more on the next firing, so brass doesn't migrate nearly as much.
Orifice neck sizing (hole in dies that push brass back in to hold a bullet) is basically working a case that is chamber size, very little brass migration, neck sizing only required.

You chat get away with this if you are making ammo for different rifles in the same caliber, you MUST size the case, neck ball required to pull migrating brass up...

What I do recommend is seeing how far your necks are being crushed down!
Take the deprime/sizer ball out of your die, size a few cases and measure.
Most times you will be SHOCKED how much undersized the neck is!
This causes excessive work hardening and is a large contributing factor to neck cracking.

Honing out that neck in the die reduces the amount of crush, reduces work hardening.
If it's not broke, don't fix it..
If it's crushing like crazy, hone out that neck!

This takes a dead case, cut the neck off, drill out the primer/flash hole for a stick (wooden dowel rod) to pass through getting to the neck.
This dead case protects the rest of the die and serves as a guide for the dowel rod so you lap the neck out squarely.

Chuck up an appropriate size wooden dowel rod, sand the end down until it very tightly fits in the neck of the die.
Apply lapping compound, hone the neck a little...

When the dowel rod turns loose, cut the end off and sand down another tight fitting end.

Clean the die and test often, size a brass and measure the results.
The idea is to get a hole that sizes necks about 0.001" or so smaller INSIDE than your bullets.
Guys that want a little more bullet hold will want slightly smaller inside CASE necks and still let the sizing ball do its job.

Guys that want a little more bullet hold can chuck up the decapped/sizer ball rod and use lapping compound on the ball.
Be careful here, a little removal & measure/test!

Making dies fit YOUR rifle isn't fast, but it isn't difficult either!
 
I've put this illustration up in a number of posts before.

attachment.php


Jeephammer said:
Removing material from the top of the case holder, or some slight removal from the bottom of the .30-06 die let's you resize the bottom of the case farther down WITHOUT moving the shoulder back at the same time...

Removing material from the top of the shell holder lets the whole die, including the shoulder, get closer to the case head, so the shoulder is also set back. Same with shortening the die. If the shortened length contacts the shell holder, it lets the die shoulder get closer to the head, too. I've done this several times and can confirm that's what happens. To size further down without setting the shoulder back, you need to lower the shell holder deck and get a die that was reamed too deeply by that same amount.


cw308 said:
On the stripped bolt is not a safety thing, it's you have a better feel of the sized case, your fired unsized case chambered in your rifle you will feel resistance when closing the bolt in most cases.

This is important. Human nerve endings can only discern a change in force of about 10% or greater. The light contact you try to detect with the case or with a headspace gauge is easily less than 10% of the ejector force or, with a cock-on-closing action, much less than the cocking force. Thus, actual first light contact becomes impossible to discern and you close the bolt too far to get an accurate reading.


308loader said:
"and the shell holder doesn't touch, or very nearly touch, the sizing die when sizing the cases"

No crack of light between shell holder and die base here.

That's fairly astonishing. In that instance, the way to set a shoulder back further, assuming that is required, is to use Mr. Guffey's feeler gauge technique. Cut a strip out of some 0.005" shim stock to fit into the shell holder under the case head or grind the edge of some half-inch wide gauges down to about .475 so they slip in, and you should be able to set the shoulder back that much further.

You are right that it's odd the setup worked before and doesn't work now. We must be missing something.
 
pretty sure I understood what jeep said, and too reload, weird...

For years and years and years I have said I size cases for short chambers and I size cases for long chambers without grinding the top of the shell holder and or base of the die. I do not agree with the claim a reloader can grind the top of the shell holder and or base of the die without shortening the distance from the shoulder of the die to the deck of the shell holder.

Grinding the top of the shell holder or base of the die increases the dies ability to shorten the distance from the shoulder of the case to the case head. I have increased the ability of the die and shell holder to shorten the case from the shoulder to the case head by shimming the case head off of the deck of the shell holder. It is something all reloaders should be able accomplish; With one die and one shell holder a reloader should be able to size cases for short chambers, at the same time the reloader should be able to size cases for long chambers. Any reloader/bumper that can 'bump' the length of the case .002" from the shoulder to the case head should be able to 'bump?' the case length from the shoulder to the case head to any length from -.010" for a short chamber to .016" for a long chamber.

I understand there are aids such as competition shell holders but there is no way to grind the die and or shell holder to size the base of the case without consideration given to the die at the shoulder; there is no way to give the shoulder of the die an exemption.

I started out as the fan of the feeler gage, nothing has changed.

F. Guffey
 
That's fairly astonishing. In that instance, the way to set a shoulder back further, assuming that is required, is to use Mr. Guffey's feeler gauge technique. Cut a strip out of some 0.005" shim stock to fit into the shell holder under the case head or grind the edge of some half-inch wide gauges down to about .475 so they slip in, and you should be able to set the shoulder back that much further.

I have always thought grinding the top of the shell holder or bottom of the die was not necessary but there are members that had a lot of time invested in the bad habit that did not agree; I then modified the approach to a bad habit. I suggested a reloader that is grinding metal from the shell holder and or die should be able to keep up with the stock removal. Every .001" removed from the top of the shell holder or bottom of the die increases the ability of the die and shell holder to decrease the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head .001".

And I said nothing about moving the shoulder back, I said nothing about bumping the shoulder back because it is impossible to move and or bump the shoulder back with a die that has case body support. There is nothing about finish the sizing process with a different shoulder than I started with.

F. Guffey
 
Subtract .02 and size to that for each individual rifle by moving die up or down.

No

I load for multiple 308's and multi multiple 223/5.56 ;):D . All three 308's are sized different and three of the AR's are sized different . I size on a single stage press and haven't adjusted my dies in years to size any of those cases regardless of how far I bump the shoulders .

All presses will have some flex/stretch/deflection when sizing a case , some more then others . I find that deflection seems to be more in the linkage between the ram and handle rather then the frame of the actual press .

Here is how much my Hornady deflects when sizing a 308 case . You must look for the gap/crack of light when sizing a case , not with a empty die and ram fully up .

No case in the die
SN05Kz.jpg


When sizing a case
h3j3Nj.jpg


The best way to defeat press deflection is for the die and shell holder to make hard contact . When doing that with a standard shell holder the case gets sized to SAAMI minimum or smaller . The problem most of use run into with that is we often don't want are cases sized down that far and we need to back are die out to get the proper shoulder bump . How ever as soon as the die is no longer making contact with shell holder we introduce that press deflection back into the sizing process .

Depending on the case and or how work hardened it is . If your die and shell holder are not making hard contact . The cases can come out longer or shorter ( head to datum ) do to how much the press deflects on each individual case . When we're only talking .002 the press does not need to give much for it to translate to the sized case .

I feel you know all this and may even use what I'm about to suggest . So if a standard shell holder when making hard contact with the die sizes your case to 1.618 and you want it sized to 1.624 . How can you get that 1.624 bump with out adjusting the die ? That's when the Redding competition shell holders come in . They come in a set of five and allow you to size your cases longer then a standard shell holder while still making hard contact with the die . They allow you to size your cases longer in .002 increments from a standard shell holder . Those increments are marked on each shell holder in the set . When used as designed the consistency in which I can size my cases is still a little mind blowing to me . Most of my cases regardless of manufacturer or times fired ( up to 4 because I anneal ) come out +/- .0005 . some cases come out +/- .001 but not many .

This way if rifle A needs a shoulder bump to 1.626 and rifle B needs a shoulder bump to 1.624 . You just use the proper Redding competition shell holder with no need to adjust the die .

https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/5...zOliIBA7TPPAXyeeUCnKfxxVki2ZK9uYaAnq0EALw_wcB

I just saw UN last post so I'll post a pic on the feeler gauge idea as well . This lifts the case up and allows you to size the case even shorter then a standard shell holder will allow . That would make for a mighty short chamber though .

k441.jpg
 
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Yep. Getting some load on the press helps length uniformity.


To Mr. Guffey's point:

I think die grinding and die neck honing and the like are usually done by folks matching a particular die to a particular rifle. Board member Hummer70 told me he had accumulated something like 158 308 Winchester dies over his decades of competing at or near the top of the heap. Most folks are better off with the shell holder sets for long chambers or feeler gauges for the short ones. But it's their choice.
 
The best way?

The best way to defeat press deflection is for the die and shell holder to make hard contact . When doing that with a standard shell holder the case gets sized to SAAMI minimum or smaller . The problem most of use run into with that is we often don't want are cases sized down that far and we need to back are die out to get the proper shoulder bump . How ever as soon as the die is no longer making contact with shell holder we introduce that press deflection back into the sizing process .

In the perfect world all cases would have the same resistance to sizing; that does not happen with mixed cases. Again: there are times the press wins and other times the case wins,

F. Guffey
 
Unclenick
On my Remington I remover the heavy spring on the ejector plunger to get a better feel . My fired case when the bolt is pulled to the rear just sits on the follower . I don't want to chase my cases . I double checked my chamber with a Go Gauge & shim to fine the measurement . I get the same measurement when using the stripped bolt . I do the same when seating the bullet with new lots , works out to be the same measurement on the Precision Mic.
 
WOW! Thanks for the information overload guys. jeep I hope you have all this info in a copy paste format. If not, my god man, do your fingers hurt?

I am extremely sincere when I say thank you to you all. I know this is a thing that is regularly covered in this kind of post. I think a guy might become complacent in his reloading when everything is working "right". When it does not, well, we rediscover things we thought we might have known, but have discounted. Such as the crack of light, for some reason it did not occur to me to look when a case is in the press (die instructions didn't say to), or the mc dowel's post of something in the chamber, of course I looked, of course I ran a snake through it... but did I really look? (and yes I did), and when I looked did I really see?

let me digest all of this some. The old Lee press is sitting on a chair waiting to go to craigslist with some other stuff (maybe). The new press is in on its new mounts, tried tested and measured true... Impressed with its power to crush cases...I have much to learn and much to observe... again many thanks.
 
let me digest all of this some. The old Lee press is sitting on a chair waiting to go to craigslist with some other stuff (maybe).

Maybe? As soon as someone recognizes the tools as being something that is considered reloading there is a big chance the items will not be allowed. I listed 40 items for sale, slowly over a period of a day there was nothing left/allowed for sale.

F. Guffey
 
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