Thunder Ranch, Inc.--Shotgun

KSFreeman, I agree that shooting fast is of questionable value. I think the 870 pump is fast enough.

I was just stating that the M1S90 Benelli is incredibly faster. That being said, shooting fast is overated. Good tactics, cover, and composure under pressure are far more important. I even think extended mag tubes are not necessary. I am not against them. To me, they are not necessary.
 
Dave, oh, yeah, that reminds me. Something I had to leave out of the original post because of length (yack, yack, yack) was that the guys who brought the weapons with the extended mags were feeling it and we didn't have to hold longer than a few minutes. "Hey, it's heavy." Sling it up. "But I need it." Get it out. "But it's heavy." Sling it up, ad naseum.

Loading the shotgun is a crucial skill; you're always going to have to do it. I'm just a wimpy office type and don't like the gamey extended tubes. However, if you are buff from your days at ST4 or the Selous Scouts and can hold the weapon at ready for hours on end, then go for it.

Another point, working out with the weapon via curls, lat raises, militree presses, and doing situps with it really helped. I will continue to work it into my dry fire routine.
 
Dick, the technique is to keep your thumb pressed to your index finger as opposed to having it acrosss the stock.

For firearms that have serious recoil, this helps keep the knuckle of your thumb out of your nose.

Giz
 
Thanks, complexity of controls can be overcome by more training, but simple often does the job nicely. Look at the manual of arms for a Beretta 92 vs a DA revolver. Hit probability is about the same for the average LEO.

Were I arming a dept with new shotguns, they'd be wearing 13" LOP stocks. Maybe 12 1/2". Smaller officers could employ them better, larger officers would be under no disadvantage. And they have good pads with the toes rounded off a mite, and the heels also. The toes for comfort, the heels to reduce snage when mounting.

And, those present stocks demand a large officer when they're used with body armor. Smaller LEOs wear Kevlar also.
 
Monkeyleg,

Aren't you a graduate of the TR experience yourself????? I thought I had seen a tour of the Ranch on a webpage you developed??? Or am I thinking of someone else???

MPF
 
MPF, I'd love to be the graduate of anything ! It wasn't me.

I can't say I've ever gotten thumbed in the nose, so this is all new to me. How do you keep a decent grip on the gun without having the thumb over the top? Sorry to disrupt KS Freeman's great story, but this is a little confusing.
 
Monkey, O.K. remember when we were on the weight pile at ST4. When you benched where did your thumbs go? Right, on the same side of the bar! Now remember when we were in the Selous Scouts what did the Sgt. Major say about our left/support hand on our FALs should be? Right loose. Same thing with the shotgun. It's counter to "instinctive", but more effective.

The strength comes from the hand pulling into the pocket that you checked with your left hand before you started shooting. It may seem counterintuitive, but some training is. That's why they call it skul. If I knew everything I would not need to study. However, the more I train, the less I know.;)
 
Story??? No what happened at TR is true; the parts I could tell about the girls at Mad Dog's or the waitress at Chili's in Kerrville are just stories.:D
 
Good report KS.

I've take several of Louis Awerbuck's shotgun courses and will have to get out to TR for one. Rich and I were there about a week before you for Team Tactics. Hope the weather was better for your trip than it was for ours:)

Denny
 
My buddies report that Team Tactics is an excellent husband/wife class. (However, I is a Lone Volk.) Same would probably apply to LE pardners or publisher/editor.:D
 
None when shooting.

Last night I noticed that I put the thumbs over when doing retention drills, but move my thumb out of the way when I go to the shoulder from CAR or other retention positions.
 
Great report ! I always love to hear these trip reports to Gunsite or Thunder Ranch sounds like a great experience. I only hope to be lucky enough one day to go to one myself. Are there many non LEO's that attend these courses ? What about cost $$$$$ ?
 
Denek? Takes money to do stuff.

Tuitition: $650
Plane: $300
Cabin: $70 per night
Food for the week: $30 (I stayed at ranch, no grocery stores)
rental car: $300 for the week
ammo: can't remember, but I paid $143 to TR, Inc. for the buck and slugs (and a book for the plane).
fun in Saint Tony's: a lot of dough:D

1/2 down on the tuition will reserve your spot at TR for non-speciality classes.

Most students at TR are non-LEOs. When I was a LEO I was the only one at my DHG1 class. Some skuls offer LEO only classes. I am unsure whether they fill them or not.

At higher levels there may be one or two. At TR's shotgun there were 2 Detroit Rock City coppers and a NASA policeman. All paid with private monies. The highest percentage of LEOs at a class I've take was Awerbuck's Pistol II. Half of the class of 20 were LEOs.
 
Oh guess I should clarify why the LEO question....I have nothing against LEO's heck if the wife would go for it I would probably be one, just wanted to know how the ratio of LEO to non was...thanks again ! Dave
 
Dave3006:

That wasn't my experience at LFI-2. At one point, Ayoob had all of us load up 5 shells in our shotguns. We were then timed to see how fast it would take to fire all five shots at a target, starting from low ready. Yes, a Benelli won the race. IIRC, the fastest time was something like 1.1 second (it's been a while and I don't have my notes with me...). I was the fastest pump gun, about 1.75 seconds IIRC. Is the Benelli faster? Sure. A lot faster? I might argue about that. Does it matter? Dunno.

M1911
 
For those that do not quite grasp the correct thumb placement as I can be quite confusing, the June issue of "SWAT" (p.59) features Range Boss Pete of TR, Inc. firing a 1903 with his thumb out of the way of his nok. One picture is worth . . . .
 
Anyone in the class use a bead sight?

KSFreeman,

Thanks for the report,

I'm wondering if anyone in your class used bead sights, and if so, were they as effective(speed, accuracy) as the shooters with ghost rings, rifle sights, etc?

Reason I ask is more often than not the 870 I get has a bead sight system. Also, do you(or anyone else) have any thoughts on the bead system?

Thanks again,

Dave
 
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