Thunder Ranch, Inc.--Shotgun

KSFreeman

New member
STANDARD DISCLAIMER: I am not and have never been a member of the SAS, RLI, Selous Scouts, SF, SEALs, or Luxembourg Royal Mounted House Guard. I do not jump out of helicopters wearing black with some silly "tactical" (i.e. black) knife in my mouth. I'm former LEO, but only had 2 birddog arrests (thousands of convictions only 2 arrests). I do not live in a violent community or swagger down the "mean streets." My last fight was over the last blueberry scone at the foo-foo coffee shop.

I walk the earf and seek knowledge because I know nothing. Those who do know everything and as THE Pat Rogers sez are too cool to train would be better off reading something else.

From April 15 to 17th I had the opportunity to attend the Shotgun class at Thunder Ranch in sunny, scenic Mountain Home, Tejas. I took the class because when I was down for DHG2 I encountered a gentleman (Clint called him "Batman", I cannot remember his correct name) from Illinois who had been to TR 23 times and proclaimed Shotgun as his favorite class (Triad was his second, but Clint stopped teaching this class).

I flew down to Holy Tony's on Saturday and was met by my reception committee. I got a hotel downtown (complete with sushi bar and foo-foo coffee bar--heaven on earth) on the river and we went shopping and then to "The County Line" on the Riverwalk thingy. Great time. We then went to Mad Dog's for a couple of Flat Tires and to talk to girls. Ahhh, Texas women. They were great--beautiful, friendly. No one asked to see my tax return from last year. No one asked what kind of cars I owned or how many square feet my house was. It was great.

San Antonio is a wonderful city--Sea World (yeah, I know, I'm a big kid), the Riverwalk, el Mercado (picked up some great Tejano music including the Garcia Brothers [now] award-winning albums). If you do not go to TR, you should go just to see SA.

I had a great time in Tejas as always. The only hard time I got was when I went to Kerrville. I noticed their K-Mart was closing (people were standing on the streets with signs) and went to see if any ammo was left (you never know). As I entered the store I heard an employee speaking Spanish and asked him in Spanish where the ammunition was. Another man became quite bellicose over lanky, geeky me speaking, if I remember right, "that dirty, beaner language." I told him to perform an unnatural act in German. He blinked at me in ignorance (yeah, I thought so) and I smiled and wished him a nice day.

I drove out to Kerrville late Sunday afternoon and got a hotel. After cleaning the guns and a run, I went to Mamacita's. Still great. Apparently they are building a new one in SA. Something to keep in mind. Yum.

Monday morning the class started. I recognized the instructors immediately--Steve (of "60 Minutes" renown), Jack of Gunsite fame, Tim of Gunsite and DOE fame and Bill the former head of the FTU for SAPD (Bill's wisdom is only exceeded by his cool accent, but I bet he thinks I have an accent). Clint had the A Team in for this class.

After checking in I had my first and only snag at TR. Apparently UPS had lost part of my ammo or an armadillo broke into the admin building and took off with my buckshot and slugs. I called UPS; they blamed the armadillo. However, TR bent their no ammo policy and allowed me to purchase some buckshot and slugs. Steve even brought it out to the range for me.

The first half of the first day is devoted to Clint's lecture. The lecture alone is worth the price of the tuition. It is the refined product of decades of firearms instructing. It is a thing of beauty.

The lectures main focus included safety, "firearms generate violence, death and destruction" no place to be a moron, purpose of the weapon, to stop violence ("I have no idea what Sporting Clays is; I can't eat one of them."), basic nomenclature of the weapon, and destruction of gunshop commando myths, including the boulder of destruction myth, can't miss myth, instant death ray myth, and the perfect gun myth and the kick-you-to-death myth.

Clint also lectured on the correct way to hold the weapon. Many people are afraid of shotguns because of the perceived recoil of the weapon. As recoil is our friend, you just have to be more educated than the weapon. Clint showed the class the correct shoulder placement, hand and elbow placement, and where to place your thumb of the trigger hand (if right-handed, the starboard side, especially important in prone and when moving with the weapon).

After a break for lunch, we went to the range (Yellow) for a range lecture from Tim on the importance of handling long weapons and the dos and don't of range manners. We began by patterning our weapons at varying ranges from 3 to 40 yards with birdshot and buckshot. As we did, new hints and lessons were added on our gunhandling.

During this patterning I managed to induce my only malfunction with my weapon. I created a double feed by failing to seat a cartridge in the magazine in a manly manner. Steve wondered over to view my latest gunfu jam the weapon technique and I cleared it by sticking my right index finger in the action and reseated the round. Good to clear mals in front of the instructors, gives the illusion that I was learning.

We closed the first day by exectuing the Rolling Thunder Drill that Clint popularized during his deputy daze with the Allen County Sheriff's Department. This is always a great time and a good way to put pressure on the student without the instructors doing anything.

It works like this: 5 shooters on the line facing 5 targets (they were steel in this case). Everyone loads (either 5 or 3 or 1 or whatever). The guy on the left shoots one round at the first target and everyone does the same one after the other. Until the 5th guy shoots and shouts "Out" (or whatever). You repeat until all five targets are engaged. The focus of the drill is to focus the student on reloading under pressure. Tim also pointed out that there was no distinction between a self-loading weapon and a slide-action weapon in terms of speed. Sort of like why NASCAR drivers like manual transmissions as they do not have to wait for the gears to shift, but do it themselves.

On the second day we studied mal drills, transition drills and shot a few slugs on steel targets and practiced positions--kneeling, braced kneeling, San Fan kneeling, and prone. "Teaching points" are always brought up and the students are allowed and encouraged to ask questions. No one is left to feel the fool for asking. For example, one of the instructors expressed his preference for butt cuffs. I asked how he shot from the off side as if it were me, a big wimp, I would get an owie on my face, but as he was a hairy-chested square stater and could laugh at pain. He explained that he held the stock on its angle so the extra rounds would not gouge him. (The "doh!" was audible in San Marcos I am told).

The third day we shot slugs on paper and made sure of our zeros.
I found that my rear sight was knocked loose. Not the gun's fault. I bloodied my mouth by going into prone a little zealously. I hit myself with the ghost-ring rear sight in the lower lip. The scar's slowly going away. However, chicks dig scars (so I tell myself). Speaking of scars, I always get a little range rash from that small black gravel. It goes away, but I usually wear a Baja shirt to protect my elbows.

We then shot more moving drills, changing cartridges (e.g. slug to buck), worked around cover, one handed shooting and the Rolling Thunder drill again. Lots of fun.

After lunch on the third day, we went to the Terminator (a "shooting house") and received a lecture on tactics. We went through a couple different sides of the Terminator dry (traps have a hard time with shotguns) and then went for a stroll on a jungle walk with Steve in pairs.

The purpose was to teach communication and the value of teamwork. I had a great partner, a for real Danger Ranger, veteran copper and grizzled veteran of several shooting skuls. I learned a lot from him. I could not have done better if I picked a partner (I was going down with MPFreeman). (He even let me shoot one of his guns when we were shooting slugs--a Rem 11-87 from ST, great gun). Gracias, vato.

Great class. Maybe Clint can be lobbied to bring back Triad???

THE GUNS: It is the man, not the tool. In so much as it matters, i took two Wilson/ST 870s, the old "FBI model" style. Light, sling, sidesaddle, short stocks, standard mags. I prefer this weapon as did most of the class. Students may bring what they wish. No one told me I had to bring an 870. I like a light because I like to see what I am shooting as I do not trust my excellent night vision and have been involved in a couple of horrific mistaken ID shootings in the dark. Can you say Diallo? I like a short stock for manuever and handling. I like the standard mag as it keeps the weight of the weapon down and increases reliability. All guns break, bring two. I brought a Les Baer TRS and a Cylinder&Slide Colt Custom for sidearms.

If Wilson can change one thing, I would have them change the slings on the weapons. They come with those silly gunshop commando slings with nice metal buckles to make noise. I want just a plain nylon strap.

FLYING: No problems with my guns. I was molested at the Indianapolis airport but I am dealing with that in the correct criminal and civil fashion. Several of my fellow passengers were bleating about arming the pilots. Why would you want some blue suiter that has 0.0 hours of training carrying when people with 100s of hours of training cannot carry? The pilot is not coming out of his hardened door to save you, Sally Soccermommie. Frustrating to no end.

I learned a lot and enjoyed myself. I cannot get over the instructors--brilliant. I thank them.
 
I just wanted to tell you that I didn't read your post because it was too long. If somebody else would like to read it and summarize it for me, that would be great.
 
Great Course description. Did Clint Smith mention why someone should choose a shotgun over the alternatives? What ammo did they recommend for indoor use?

Thanks
 
Great post,KS,thanks for sharing this. Sounds like a very informative and elevating week.

I find the lack of semi autos interesting. The oreponderance of 870s comes as no surprise.

Question, why a starboard position for the R thumb? IIRC, starboard means right.

And another query. You mention slugs and buck. Were any of these reduced recoil? Any mention of birdshot in AS scenarios? Thanks...
 
Quote: I just wanted to tell you that I didn't read your post because it was too long. If somebody else would like to read it and summarize it for me, that would be great.

Synopsis:

KSFreeman takes a shotgun and flies to Texas and speaks in tongues and loses his bullets and meets Clint and learns about not being food and fires his shotgun and meets some Texan girls and fires his shotgun some more and learns not to put his thumb in his nose while firing his shotgun and goes into a scary house and goes home and has a fight about a muffin. The End.

KSF is a very, very good writer. It's worth reading the entire post.

'coach
 
Coach, had the fight about the scone before TR. No kidding there I was there was 5 of them, 1 of me, and 1 blueberry scone and I was all alone at the Starbuck's, except for the bored college girl behind the counter--terrifying.

Dave, self loading weapons were present. 4 Ben M90s and 1 Ber 1200 were present. My partner brought 2 870s (ST's "Border Patrol" model) and an 11-87. Pete, the range boss, had a Vang comp'd 11-87. There are advantages and disadvantages of either type.

It was great shooting my partner's 11-87 with slugs, but once you learn how to hold the shotgun, a slide action with slugs does not bite. You quickly realize that it is the man, not the weapon, that matters. I think that's one of the points with the Rolling Thunder drill. BTW, TR does not specify what kind of weapon to bring.

You hold the thumb on the starboard side (if right handed) so you do not smack yourself in la nariz. This matters not on the skeet field (or whatever you call it). But when shooting buckshot or slugs, it is very different. This is especially pronounced in prone (kneeling too for us lanky types).

I had ordered reduced recoil buckshot and slugs, but the armadillos has them now. You'll have to ask him. TR sold me the full power Federal stuff (I use #4 buck) and slugs. Wonder of wonders if you use the correct technique, the reduced recoil stuff is moot. Up close and personal birdshot can be tremendously effective. Clint told us about a call he was R/O to when he was with the ACSD. BG broke into a house containing an elderly (81) skeet shooter who was home watching the 11 o`clock news. BG leaves after his lower jaw falls on the front porch. Yikes, welcome to Fort Wayne, enjoy your stay.

G3, I don't remember Clint saying when to use a shotgun. I'll leave that to the Dreaded Demons of Darkness. I keep it ready by my bed. Ammo selection depends on the environment. Because of the construction of the Fashionable Bachelor Pad and location (up on a small hill), I use buckshot.

Different house or location, maybe birdshot. The problem with the articles written by the flower-shirted types who laud the rifle inside your house is that not everyone lives in a concrete box or a castle in the desert. Same problem with the shotgun. It depends on your field of fire. Guns are like tools--do I use a hammer or a screwdriver? What do you want to do?
 
Sounds more like a PR release than an average guy going to the ranch. I would like to know a little more about the food they serve, and if they have an open bar.
 
Thanks,KS. I've not bumped my schnozz yet with ANY 12 gauge load, but it's a given that I'm recoil tolerant anyway.

When I did the field test last year I wasn't in a psoition to time some rapid COFS and drills, comparing speed between the R/R Estate stuff vs my old Winchester and Fed duty 00, but I see no great advantage to the R/R ammo for me. Others will differ, and that's OK. Did like the tighter patterns with the Estate,tho.

The semis interest me. I've been wondering why more hasn't been done with them in the Practical field. Higher cost and lower reliability(Possibly more myth than reality) are my guesses.
 
Herr Mannlicher, I'm not the average guy--my gun skills are much, much lower.:D TR, Inc. does not serve food, but does have Gatorade and soda in one of the outside refrigs. You can get a box lunch if you stay at the YO or there's a HEB (grocery store) on 27.

They do have a cook-out on Thursday night during the 5 day classes. Bring your own Tabasco or Thai sauce. They don't believe in spicy food down there I guess. There is no booze allowed. But fear not, Kerrville has several restaurants that serve alcohol, if that's your thing.
 
Erick, sorry about the length. I know you are busy being tactical and all.

Maybe I'll get it published in a gun rag. I'll be sure and take some photos of me in a flowered shirt pointing the gun at myself. That should reduce the content substantially.:D
 
Wasn't the whole urban rifle concept Clint Smith's baby? He didn't touch on it?

I thought the hub-bub about the 5.56 was that it penetrated less contruction materials than buckshot and pistol bullets.


What no death-defying action photos!:cool:
 
That sounds like an astonishingly nice way to spend a few days.

One question if I may - when shooting prone, the thumb is not supposed to go over the axis of the bore? To rephrase - don't use the opposable thumb, but keep it with the other fingers?
 
G3, I hope there are no photos of me with a bloody mouth or me scaling the fence when I got locked out my first night at the ranch (city boy out on the town--the waitress was really cute). Scramble carry really does work!

I don't know about UR being Clint's baby. He is generally credited with standardizing the dogma from various sources including his own extensive instructing experience. I am uncertain when his book is due out, but I'll wait and read about it.

The problem with the gunshop commando assertion that rifles are good to use for defence of home and hearth is that not everyone lives in the same house or location. A stone castle in the desert or a concrete box is far different than a French Colonial in the suburbs of a Northern city. Firearms are only tools. Police departments have insurance policies that pick up the costs associated with litigation over violations of #4. Plus, rifles are frigging loud. Concussion can be a bad thing in a fight. I may want to shoot again. Remember Miami?

Matt, I told you you should go. How about in the fall? The new nephew should be done by then. Clear it with the boss?

Benjamin, the thumb of the shooting hand belongs on that side of the weapon in any position, not just prone. But prone (or kneeling for me) or moving with the weapon raises this concern more. So if you are right handed the thumb belongs on the right side. Nothing new the USMC used to teach this over 100 years ago.

People always want to put the thumb on the oppossing side thus requiring stocks that are too long and stretch the operator out over the weapon and heighten recoil. I saw the same thing in undergrad when I sold guns. Some guys even told me they liked the thumb at least 1" away from their nose as they struggled to hoist the weapon up. (No, I didn't correct them. I just sold the gun and made my commission. One does not go to a gun store for training).

"But it kicks!" Well, put in the should pocket, pull it in tight. "But my thumb hits my nose." Put it on the other side. "What?" Put it over with your other fingers like this. "Oh, I see. Hey, that works."

Factory stocks are way too long for most. As Tim Wickert says, "The factory stock on a Remington 870 is over 14". Don't even field strip it. Take it to the gunsmith and start cutting."

Great class. It's a shame TR only does this once a year.
 
Sounds like a great class. However, in my experience in the Frontsight, TFTT, and FTA shotgun classes, my Benelli is SO incredibly hands down faster than any model 870. It is so much faster that it is not even close. Pumps are great. But, not as fast.

Now, that being said, speed is not everything. How fast do you need to shot the bad guys. But, I have found I can hit targets about 50% or more faster.

My $0.02
 
KSFreeman- Great write up!! You should start your own magazine so you can have pics of you pointing guns at yourself!!! ;)
 
Concussion can be a bad thing in a fight. I may want to shoot again. Remember Miami?

Are you referring to Matix being taken out of action during scene 1 of the gun fight by the blast of Platt's Mini-14 fusillade? I believe only Ayoob is pushing that theory, but I maybe wrong. It's been years since I watched the FBI's reenactment.

According to Dr. Anderson's work, the autopsy revealed no damage to Matix's ear drums or cornea. I'll agree I don't want any one unloading a .223 3" from my face, especially inside a Monte Carlo. :D

Dr. Anderson concluded that Matix was knocked out by 158 gr +p bullet to the side of the face courtesy of Agent Mireles. That fact he woke up and tried to drive away is humbling. Those banditos had some stones.

Noise can be a factor in any shooting situation, but auditory exclusion may negate the immediate effects.

In a typical home defense scenario, the defender is usually barricaded in the "safe room" with the long gun in defilade. I assume the barriers will allow one time to put on their Peltors and body armor. It's going to be deafening no matter what boom stick your using.

Not to belabor the point, Gunsite, IWBA and a few other respected sources conducted tests which concluded that 5.56 penetrated less than buck shot and pistol rounds after existing common building materials. Absolutely, one should be aware of his back stop regardless of their firearm. Each weapon has its own set of advantages and disadvantages. For example, being responsible for a single projectile vs. 9-20 projectiles with each trigger pull, offset, etc..

Just one hick's ramblings...
 
G3, yes, a .38 to the face is usually more effective than noise. If you are tactically aware enough to sleep in your Tac-6s, then I guess there shouldn't be the same impact. Plus, you can hear them coming better.

If a rifle cartridge can work for you, do it. I'm thinking of a 106mm reckless rifle, but the neighbors are jumpy (plus being the wimpy office type I may have trouble lugging a 350 pound weapon up two flights of stairs). My point is that not everyone lives in the same house in the same location. Go shoot your building materials before anyone follows the flower-shirted.

I've shot "my house." (Good to know contractors). I know that #4 buck will not likely (never say never) penetrate my house or winders. While the layout of my house minimizes the angles, if I have to move and groove, the angles will change. When I build my new house, I will be able to use a .50-110. Guns are just tools. One needs to adapt to the environment.

Just another hick rambling back . . .

Ronin308, hey, if I want to look at people pointing guns at themselves I already have a wide selection of flowered shirts to view. Where's the market in that?

Dave, I guess if you're just standing there shooting, you are correct. But if engaging multiple targets or moving and grooving, it was a distinction without difference. The main advantage to the self-loading weapon is that it is easier to use one-handed when you get wounded. I own both types of weapons myself and make no claims about revolver vs. semi, or 9mm vs. 45, just commenting on what I saw and did. Another problem with the Ben and Ber I saw was that the switches, levers, lasers/phasers, neon/xeon stuff on the weapon confused the operators under stress. Yes, I know, train more. I agree that the man matters more than the weapon--and how.
 
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