Does anyone carry a SIG, Beretta, Smith, Ruger, etc. with the intent of thumb cocking it as you draw? I have a 225 which I like very much and can draw and fire with little or no loss in speed with thumb cocking. My shots end up being much more accurate. I have no intention of actually carrying it as I am pretty sold on other makes. I am just curious (and bored) if anyone uses this practice IRL even though it is illegal in IDPA (???).
Thumb cock DA/SA from draw?
- Thread starter AndABeer
- Start date
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
Dont do it.
I dunno about the other pistols I mentioned but my 225 will not allow the hammer to contact the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled fully rearward so as long as you keep your finger off the trigger until you are on target as you should I don't really see the safety issue.
P
PreserveFreedom
Guest
If it is for close range defense, I'll pull and fire. If I have a couple seconds to line up my shot, I'll cock first.
shiroikuma
New member
I found with practice, and lots of it I can shoot my CZ-75 nearly as accurately on double action as on single action. You just have to practice that double action pull, making it smooth. I had to experiment with various flavors of pulling the trigger to find one that works well. I did this by shooting at least 150 rounds Double action. I just decocked the gun after each shot and kept practicing. Dry fire practice helps a lot too. Of course this is easier for me because I have a .22 conversion kit for the CZ which allows me to practice without worrying about the cost of ammmo.
shiro
shiro
AndABeer
That 225 is shaped so nicely, its just as quick and easy for me to thumb down the hammer as it is to click off the thumb safety on a 1911. I have to agree w/George and the others who caution against this w/a double action to the point that many folks just don't train enough to safely use dangerous equiptment. Many of these folks should stay off of the road IMHO as I have to deal with them in traffic every day. Fact is, an automobile requires far more complex fine and gross motor functions and repetitions for its safe use. Sadly, most of us have seen tradgedies due to this even more powerful and dangerous of tools. Considering that, I do not believe that it is not proper or more dangerous for someone committed to safe gun handling to use a SIG 225 in this fashion. I presume that AndABeer is not cocking while its still in the holster or pointed toward his body.
That said, I don't recommend thumbing the safety, like you said, for the average gun owner. That's why many recommend DAO for the masses. However, I see no reason why it would be more dangerous than a 1911 condition 1, as long as one is committed to safe practice methods. And I stress the word "safe" and the word "practice"! Like you said, AndABeer, keep the finger off of the trigger until on target. Secondly, don't thumb off until the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction, ie. down range. Lastly, Do it the same way every time w/out shifting the grip.
The sweetheart of SIGS, the 225 is shaped well enough that my average sized hand can thumb hammer while pointing in the direction of and closing on target. Secondly, I like the trigger guard even better than the 1911 in that it allows my trigger finger to stay pointed straight along the reciever and bring it to the trigger w/out a bobble. I love the 1911 design, but if any quality manufacturer, (are you listening Caspian and Rock River?), came out with an extended trigger guard like the P-series SIGS, I'd buy as many as I could afford. This helps prevent the temptation of placing the index digit on the trigger prematurely.
One more related point of this topic. I can shoot w/plenty accuracy at close ranges DA. The DA/SA transition is no problem at most combat ranges for someone who is commited to SAFELY PRACTICING. Same goes with a DAO. Same goes with a SA 1911 or Glock. A 7-14 pound DA trigger isn't going to make someone a safe shooter when under the terror and adrenalin dump of a combat situation IMHO. Safe and proper technique and consistant training is the key to all toys and tools, from the big tonka trucks on down to the screwdriver.
Best regards,
eq
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My new baby will wear one of these!
That 225 is shaped so nicely, its just as quick and easy for me to thumb down the hammer as it is to click off the thumb safety on a 1911. I have to agree w/George and the others who caution against this w/a double action to the point that many folks just don't train enough to safely use dangerous equiptment. Many of these folks should stay off of the road IMHO as I have to deal with them in traffic every day. Fact is, an automobile requires far more complex fine and gross motor functions and repetitions for its safe use. Sadly, most of us have seen tradgedies due to this even more powerful and dangerous of tools. Considering that, I do not believe that it is not proper or more dangerous for someone committed to safe gun handling to use a SIG 225 in this fashion. I presume that AndABeer is not cocking while its still in the holster or pointed toward his body.
That said, I don't recommend thumbing the safety, like you said, for the average gun owner. That's why many recommend DAO for the masses. However, I see no reason why it would be more dangerous than a 1911 condition 1, as long as one is committed to safe practice methods. And I stress the word "safe" and the word "practice"! Like you said, AndABeer, keep the finger off of the trigger until on target. Secondly, don't thumb off until the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction, ie. down range. Lastly, Do it the same way every time w/out shifting the grip.
The sweetheart of SIGS, the 225 is shaped well enough that my average sized hand can thumb hammer while pointing in the direction of and closing on target. Secondly, I like the trigger guard even better than the 1911 in that it allows my trigger finger to stay pointed straight along the reciever and bring it to the trigger w/out a bobble. I love the 1911 design, but if any quality manufacturer, (are you listening Caspian and Rock River?), came out with an extended trigger guard like the P-series SIGS, I'd buy as many as I could afford. This helps prevent the temptation of placing the index digit on the trigger prematurely.
One more related point of this topic. I can shoot w/plenty accuracy at close ranges DA. The DA/SA transition is no problem at most combat ranges for someone who is commited to SAFELY PRACTICING. Same goes with a DAO. Same goes with a SA 1911 or Glock. A 7-14 pound DA trigger isn't going to make someone a safe shooter when under the terror and adrenalin dump of a combat situation IMHO. Safe and proper technique and consistant training is the key to all toys and tools, from the big tonka trucks on down to the screwdriver.
Best regards,
eq
-------------
My new baby will wear one of these!
Rosco Benson
New member
Jeff Cooper suggests thumb-cocking as one method of avoiding the long, heavy trigger pull on a DA/SA auto. It is important to note that he suggests cocking with the SUPPORT hand thumb as the piece is brought to eye level. Cooper notes, and I agree, that the best approach is to use the piece as designed, but some folks just can't cut it when it comes to dealing with the DA pull (as well as the DA to SA transition). I would suggest getting a different pistol, but this is not always possible ("issue" pistols, etc.)
Thumb-cocking is probably a better alternative than carrying the piece cocked and unlocked (condition zero). It is certainly better than the so-called "Austrian" method of just crunching through the DA shot, without making any real attempt to hit, just to get the piece cocked, and then getting down to business with the subsequent SA shots.
Thumb-cocking a DA auto is not illegal in IDPA, provided it is done safely.
Rosco
Thumb-cocking is probably a better alternative than carrying the piece cocked and unlocked (condition zero). It is certainly better than the so-called "Austrian" method of just crunching through the DA shot, without making any real attempt to hit, just to get the piece cocked, and then getting down to business with the subsequent SA shots.
Thumb-cocking a DA auto is not illegal in IDPA, provided it is done safely.
Rosco
Who <i>are</i> these people who have so much trouble with double action pulls? "Oh, I can't use THAT gun to save my fanny. It has a long DA pull."
I think, given a choice between a DA revolver and a sharp stick, a lot of people would go for the "consistency and inherent accuracy" of the stick.
I think, given a choice between a DA revolver and a sharp stick, a lot of people would go for the "consistency and inherent accuracy" of the stick.
Thanks for the correction on IDPA, Rosco.
BTW For those interested, the SIG 225 WAS designed to be thumb cocked OR DA. They could have bobed the hammer or put a shroud on it, but they gave it a very accessable, good purchase. As long as you can do it safely and proficiently, what's the beef? I can see reasons for target shooting one might use the weak hand thumb to cock the hammer, but the strong hand thumb is much more positive and seems easier, at least for me. I only use 1911s condition 1, cocked and locked. It is swiped off using the same motion as thumb cocking the SIG. I don't do this w/a 1911. Does one HAVE to thumb cock for an accurate shot? Of course not. I'm sure that many here at TFL have mastered DA/SA trasition, DAO, and SA. There are benefits to being flexible enough to shoot either way and that's why I train that way. One safety feature of the 225 is the DA. When it is put into SA mode, the main safety features are that its pointed in the right direction, know what's behind and in front of target, index digit off of the trigger until commited to fire, and last and hopefully not least is the organ between the ears. The same is true for the 1911. They are more similar than they appear to be.
I've put the smoothest DA stroke on my 225 that I've ever felt and a surprise SA break that many would pay big bucks to get on their competition 1911s. Either way works just fine. Although I'm the kind of person who likes to stay w/one type/grip angle handgun, I love both the 1911 and SIG 225. The thumb stroke and SA first shot make them as close to an identical pair as possible between any combination of DA and 1911 that I've found so far. The pointing and firing qualities are the same and I love them both, while at the same time am flexible enough to use revolver, glock, whatever if need be. That's not to brag as I'm sure many of us here can do the same. I'm just giving this example in defense to others who are not beginners or incompetant, that IF someone is committed to it, it can be done well.
I can see both sides of this issue and have been there. Whatever suits you best is the way for you to go, IMHO. Althesame, I think that AAB brings up an issue that I rarely see addressed. I think its a valid one.
Best regards,
eq
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What I'll be putting in it someday.
BTW For those interested, the SIG 225 WAS designed to be thumb cocked OR DA. They could have bobed the hammer or put a shroud on it, but they gave it a very accessable, good purchase. As long as you can do it safely and proficiently, what's the beef? I can see reasons for target shooting one might use the weak hand thumb to cock the hammer, but the strong hand thumb is much more positive and seems easier, at least for me. I only use 1911s condition 1, cocked and locked. It is swiped off using the same motion as thumb cocking the SIG. I don't do this w/a 1911. Does one HAVE to thumb cock for an accurate shot? Of course not. I'm sure that many here at TFL have mastered DA/SA trasition, DAO, and SA. There are benefits to being flexible enough to shoot either way and that's why I train that way. One safety feature of the 225 is the DA. When it is put into SA mode, the main safety features are that its pointed in the right direction, know what's behind and in front of target, index digit off of the trigger until commited to fire, and last and hopefully not least is the organ between the ears. The same is true for the 1911. They are more similar than they appear to be.
I've put the smoothest DA stroke on my 225 that I've ever felt and a surprise SA break that many would pay big bucks to get on their competition 1911s. Either way works just fine. Although I'm the kind of person who likes to stay w/one type/grip angle handgun, I love both the 1911 and SIG 225. The thumb stroke and SA first shot make them as close to an identical pair as possible between any combination of DA and 1911 that I've found so far. The pointing and firing qualities are the same and I love them both, while at the same time am flexible enough to use revolver, glock, whatever if need be. That's not to brag as I'm sure many of us here can do the same. I'm just giving this example in defense to others who are not beginners or incompetant, that IF someone is committed to it, it can be done well.
I can see both sides of this issue and have been there. Whatever suits you best is the way for you to go, IMHO. Althesame, I think that AAB brings up an issue that I rarely see addressed. I think its a valid one.
Best regards,
eq
-------------
What I'll be putting in it someday.
If you want to fire your first shot SA, why not buy a SA auto?
The first semi auto handgun I ever shot much was a Beretta 92. I thought it was great for a while. After a lot of practice, I realized that the DA/SA design of this gun is a hindrance to good shooting (for me anyway). The long DA first shot followed by a short SA second shot was difficult to get used to. I learned to fire it accurately both DA and SA, but having to fire 2 shots rapidly back to back like that is still something I find frustrating.
So I tried thumb cocking the first shot, which is kind of hard to do with the 92's bobbed hammer. Way too slow.
I ended up getting a Sig 225, and I found it a whole lot easier to thumb cock, and that made me happy for a while.
Eventually, I discovered a new gun, called the 1911, which was designed by somebody who must have actually fired the guns he designed. This pretty much solved my problem. Now every shot is an easy SA, just like God intended.
The first semi auto handgun I ever shot much was a Beretta 92. I thought it was great for a while. After a lot of practice, I realized that the DA/SA design of this gun is a hindrance to good shooting (for me anyway). The long DA first shot followed by a short SA second shot was difficult to get used to. I learned to fire it accurately both DA and SA, but having to fire 2 shots rapidly back to back like that is still something I find frustrating.
So I tried thumb cocking the first shot, which is kind of hard to do with the 92's bobbed hammer. Way too slow.
I ended up getting a Sig 225, and I found it a whole lot easier to thumb cock, and that made me happy for a while.
Eventually, I discovered a new gun, called the 1911, which was designed by somebody who must have actually fired the guns he designed. This pretty much solved my problem. Now every shot is an easy SA, just like God intended.
Quantum Singularity
New member
CZ or 1911's
I agree with Dr45ACP.....
If you want to fire SA first shot get yourself a 1911 or Browning Hi-Power.
I agree with Dr45ACP.....
If you want to fire SA first shot get yourself a 1911 or Browning Hi-Power.
P
PreserveFreedom
Guest
Now, maybe I didn't make it too clear what I meant exactly. If there is an immediate threat to my life (which is how most self defense shootings occur) I will draw and shoot DA. However, if i am going into something, pistol drawn, I am gonna cock it and have that much less of a trigger pull. My favorite carry piece, which I am thinking about for this, is my Beretta Cougar 8040. If the safety is on, it is decocked, so there are no cocked and locked capabilities. I will admit, I love a SA trigger pull, not that I dread a DA pull. And yes, I do have a SA pistol as well that I carry cocked and locked. However, when I need to conceal something larger than a mousegun with light clothing on (I live in Southern New Mexico so I wear light clothing quite a bit.) My Beretta winds up under my shirt in an inside the pants holster. I have a couple extra pounds on my gut so if I try carrying my SA cocked and locked in that holster, it tears a hole in me. I use that one for open carry or when wearing a longer jacket.
I carry a Hi Power in C1 at the moment, and will probably go back to a 1911 soon. As stated in my original post, I do not intend to implement this practice, I was just curious if anyone did it with regularity. With other pistols this would be difficult but with the 225 it just seems natural. Hell, the first time I attempted to speed draw it from a holster, the web of my hand cocked it accidentally.
CITADELGRAD87
New member
Do what you're comfortable with, but I suggest you take the next 3 range trips, decock after EVERY shot, and then get back to us.
That's what I did, and now that first "throwaway" shot is generally COM, as I just got used to it.
You might surprise yourself. I have suggested my "invention" to several friends, after they did it, no more complaints, althoug a few did decide on a SA setup.
That's what I did, and now that first "throwaway" shot is generally COM, as I just got used to it.
You might surprise yourself. I have suggested my "invention" to several friends, after they did it, no more complaints, althoug a few did decide on a SA setup.
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
Dr45ACP
Amen, Brother!
Amen, Brother!