Throw Down Wallet (a question for Mas Ayoob)

Beleive it or not the vast majority of criminals out there are petty ones and do not want to kill you. They want cash.

There are plenty of ways to throw a wallet from meek and mild to offensive and disrespectful, use your head.

Drawing when you could get out without doing so or when a gun is pointed at you is almost always STUPID.
 
Wow, where do you guys live? This whole thread seems a bit paranoid to me! Fake throw down wallets and all. In my 61 years, Iv'e never been confronted by a criminal. Sure there are places near where I live that have high incidents of crime. I tend to avoid those area's. Appears like avoidance is the best strategy!
 
You probably think it is paranoid to carry a gun a well, given that you have never been confronted.

Why is active preparation, especially the type that is strategic or non-violent, considered paranoid?
 
A true story:

Back sometime in the 1970's, my dads best friend was robbed at gun point. He was illegally carrying a revolver on him at the time (Texas).

He withdrew his wallet, and threw it at the robbers feet. When the robber bent down to retrieve it, my dads friend shot him directly in the top of the head, killing him.

He spent quite some time in jail while the local DA hemmed and hawed about wether to charge him with murder. He was finally released and no charges were filed against him.

Is it worth it to you to sit in the can for a long time over your wallet?
 
Bill, that's bum luck there, man.

I can't quite understand the motive behind the head shot- and nowadays, in almost any jurisdiction, I think someone taking that route is gonna be in the clink alot longer than your dad's friend actually was. The coroner's gonna see a point-blank shot to the back, or top of the head, powder burns on the head and hair, and as Ricky Ricardo might say "there's gonna be some 'splaining to do!"

What a sad commentary on some segments of society that a guy is going to risk his life for $50 bucks (or less) in someone's wallet. How many lawns would he have to mow to earn that?

As bad as I feel for that poor sap who got smoked, who's to say that (had he lived) he might not have continued on the path of crime to include murder or rape? Who's to say he wasn't already killing people for the $50 bucks in their wallets? In Florida, just 45 minutes from where I live, if you get mugged, there's a helluva good chance that you're going to get shot too. Sometimes its like the Wild West out there, and the only thing one can do is to be vigilant, stay mentally alert, avoid compromising positions, and (for those times when all else fails) practice!
 
I just carry my gun directly ABOVE my wallet... skip the wallet, and draw the gun and SHOOT TO STOP, MULTIPLE TIMES, WITHOUT ANY WARNING TO THJE BG... BG stopped, YOU not robbed, and shoot ruled as "justified"...

problem solved...
 
I don't carry a throw down wallet. I don't often find myself in condition white either. I am constantly surveying where I am and the people around me. I have no problem staring at people for a few seconds to size them up. This is not something I taught myself to do, this is just something I have always done I guess. I have never been approached by any miscreants and I have spent plenty of time in some not so great areas.
As for the wallet, am I the only one who carries his/her weapon near where the wallet would be?
 
Lookit, couple points:

1. If you have/use a "throwdown wallet" for a mugging scenario, then it would not be a very smart idea to *ACTUALLY* throw it down on the ground; that could really hack off your thug, and cause him to shoot you. You're much better off either (a) just handing over the throwdown wallet; then his mind is put at ease, thinking you are cooperating. He'll either turn and go, or look in it for money. If he looks in it for money, this should be just enough distraction for you to draw. If he leaves, so much the better - you're safe and you're only out a wallet, not several months of your life and thousands in attorney's fees potentially for having to shoot someone. Or, (b) tossing the wallet up in the air towards his face, so that he must flinch/deflect/catch - this ought to definitely give you enough time to draw. But simply throwing it down seems like a bad idea.

2. The techniques mentioned above, if aimed to allow you to distract him enough to draw and shoot yourself, can just as easily be done with your ACTUAL wallet, and no need for a throwdown. Unless you want to guard against the scenario where the attacker leaves without violence, being satisfied with your mere handing him of the wallet, by putting a couple/few dollars into the throwdown, and keeping your credit cards, IDs, & more cash in the real wallet.

3. As far as just drawing your gun instead of pulling out the wallet to begin with, this may or may not work, depending on the experience/sophistication of the crook, and more importantly, your gun's location. If you carry at the 3 or 4 oclock strong side belt position, then it'd be pretty easy, because it will look like you're going for your wallet in your rear pants pocket. If, OTOH, you have your gun carried in a SmartCarry holster, as I do right now, then reaching into the front of your pants is NOT going to look like you're complying and getting the wallet - you might just set him off and get shot. So in the case of smartcarry, if someone got the drop on me, I would first grab my wallet and hand it over, then look for an opportunity to draw. Most likely, I would try the "toss-the-wallet-towards-his-face" routine. While he's dodging/deflecting, I step quickly to one side and back while drawing.

4. If the thug takes complete control, and gets your wallet out himself, while you have to hold your hands up, then you're pretty much screwed over, unless you're fast & trained in jujitsu or similar techniques to quickly grab or deflect his gun and then grapple hand to hand.
 
Actually most self defense safety type expert say to throw the wallet in one direction and run in the other

The purpose of the exercise is not to get a shot off but to get away

If you feel the need to shoot you could always run a safe distance and tail him home

More and more these discussions seem to be directed more towards how can I justify shooting someone than how can I safely get out of a situation without putting myself at the mercy of the bad guy

Standing your ground is the best way to assure a bad outcome, run screaming like a girl and feel bad about it in the morning
 
why would anyone presume the BG *won't* shoot?

Recently here in Las Vegas, a clerk was robbed at gun point. He complied completely and handed over the cash. Just before leaving, one BG put a .22 round fired from a sawed off rigle, in to his head. I believe he survived, but I don't know his condition.

Just a few months ago a mom and her teen age doughter were walking home from a grocery story in a nice neighborhood here. Two thugs robbed them and shot one or both in the belly. They survived as well.

Point is, these are two of far too many examples of why we carry and why lethal force can and should be used if some dope is pointing a pistol at you.
 
I've been robbed at gunpoint. I could have used a throw down wallet and a firearm...

I had no firearm, and I threw down my real wallet... :mad:

But we survived by the grace of God...
 
Is it worth it to you to sit in the can for a long time over your wallet?
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To all others less qualified (98% of us) forget about trying to be a convincing actor with a fake wallet to buy time while you try to decide if your life is really in grave danger, or if you're about to plunge yourself into a nightmarish lawsuit over someone stealing and maxing out your visa. Grow up. Real wallet, Real Robber, Real gun, REAL consequences. Anything else is a distraction, and possible civil liability.
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Apparently you two don't understand that once a criminal is threatening your life in the classic mugging gunpoint negotiations of "Your wallet or your life," it is not about your wallet. It is about your life.

Triggerman9, you cite Ayoob, but did you actually pay attention to what he has written? While he does stress not doing things that could potentially land you in court battles later that some folks interpret as being primary self defense doctrine, he also stresses survival, which is what should be primary self defense doctrine.

The criminal ain't threatening your wallet. The criminal is threatening your life.
 
This thread could go places instead of being an "opinion heap" if a few LEO's/criminoligists could answer a few questions:
Are the victim's chances of being robbed but unscathed better if the thug is
1. Wearing ,say, a ski mask or other identity hiding device?
2. A 110 lb crackly-voice punk with a knife (probably looking for crack money) shaking in his hand vs a brute swinging a lead pipe?
3. Perp says he has a gun but does the old finger in the jacket pocket routine?
4. Park where there's room to run vs alley (where you shouldn't be anyways) or god forbid, elevator?
5. More than one perp?
6. You wonder if he'll see your gun when you reach for said wallet?
7. Any other potential mishaps?

Just trying to broaden the scope here. We're going to our corners again, and that stagnates a thread. I'm interested in learning, but I'm starting to hear the same old armchair stuff (no offense, it's natural, I do it too).
 
Forgot to mention

Violent crime in our state's capital has decreased 20%! WOW! how did our new mayor do it? By re-defining violent crime! Now, if you're mugged but not stabbed or shot, it's no longer violent. I guess it's just an "agreement" to transfer funds.
 
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Violent crime in our state's capital has decreased 20%! WOW! how did our new mayor do it? By re-defining violent crime! Now, if you're mugged but not stabbed or shot, it's no longer violent. I guess it's just an "agreement" to transfer funds.
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That has long been the standard for NYC. If violent crime is too high in a precinct then the crimes are reported differently to reomve the "violent" aspect.
 
There's a Seecamp in my "wallet"... A weapon pointed at me is a threat to my life, no matter how you look at it.
 
i think the idea is to throw your wallet left and you run right. i wouldnt stick around for him to discover the words F***-*** written on a photo copy of a $1 dollar bill in your fake wallet. :D
 
i think the idea is to throw your wallet left and you run right. i wouldnt stick around for him to discover the words F***-*** written on a photo copy of a $1 dollar bill in your fake wallet.
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That may be a good option for you. Twenty years ago it might have worked for me too, but that was "one bad knee and some arthritis in the back" ago. I attended a training last year where we were to run from one cover to another. I gave my best sprint and about five steps in, fell forward onto the grass (luckily). Yeah, I got up and ran again, but it showed me that I probably can't outrun most BG's. Hey, at least my gun didn't get dirty.
 
Agree. I don’t run so fast either. Between a bad back, asthma and sciatica, a fast retreat or prolonged scuffle would put me under. However, if someone already has a gun on you, pitching a wallet in one direction and hobbling in the other may be your best bet. I think I read in one of Ayoob’s books to keep a live $10 or $20 in the wallet too. If I recall, his point was that the $10 or $20 would be better than $20K to the attorney after shooting someone. Either way it is a crap-shoot.
 
Generally, you can judge a book by it's cover! Some call it profiling.But if it quacks, waddles, and has feathers, it might just be a............................
 
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