Throw away your 1911?

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Do the police carry 1911 anymore?
It seems like they all carry Glocks now
I was reading Guns&Ammo mag.They said
70% of all police departments carry Glock now
why is that?????
 
The're light weight, they go bang 99.999% of the time & th'ere CHEAP !
Hey, no flames....
Lowest bidder gets the contract in EVERY Govt. Dept !

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"The Gun from Down Under !"
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Here in Utah - I see many 1911s carried by our officers. Quite often it isnt the older veteran officers either... The last few times I saw one on a LEO's hip it was younger spitfire types... and one female officer as well. (Who was drastically attractive btw)
In fact - I would say that the 1911 is COMING BACK into the LE role.



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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
 
SInce most police with over 10 years in started with revolvers, the Glock had one big advantage when depts considered the switch. It's perhaps the easiest auto in the world for a revolver shooter to crosstrain to.

And, much as I love the GM, I gotta admit it's not for everyone.
 
Aside from being CHEAP$, the Glock is a "cookie cutter" gun after all. It is "simple" no manual safeties etc; and does have the "heavy" DAO trigger that most DAO revolvers have.

In most LE agencies it seems they don't trust there patrolman enough to let them carry single action pistols (1911s). I don't know if they think its a safety issue or lack of training? I can only speculate.

However, two of the "BEST" police SWAT teams in the country carry SA 1911s as there primary side arm. Those are the LAPD SWATs which carry COLT GOVERNMENT model 1911s, and the FBIs SWATs who have opted for SPRINGFIELD customs.

These units train with weapons all the time, and do know all there capabilities.

Is it the GUN (1911) or the CALIBER (.45ACP) that makes these weapons the first choice in this elite community?

In the paper back "SWAT TEAM," part of the POWER SERIES by Hans Halberstadt, the book covers in detail what actual SWAT TEAM MEMBERs have found to work in "real" operations (i.e. fire fights). The conclusion by them is that "the best CALIBER is the one you can hit your target with."

However, they also have found that some CALIBERs are more effective than others when they do hit there target.

"Each caliber has its own set of virtues and vices." "...the popular 9mm round is considered to be a wimpy little thing that will almost bounce off someone." "Some of that reputation comes from low-powered loads that were designed to keep bullets from "overpenetrating," or going through walls and striking unintended people after going through or past suspects." "...And it is true that people have absorbed numerous hits with 9mm rounds and still managed to keep fighting (asisted usually by large doses of PCP). So no body claims the 9mm is the hardest hitting, best-stopping bullet on the block."

"...We've reached the conclusion that the most reliable, all around cartridge is the .45ACP with ball ammunition. It has about 65 percent more frontal area than the 9mm. the ball version is a reliable feeder, and it is a durable bullet if you have to shoot through windows, a car door, or a wall;it will stay intact a lot better than a hollow point will."

"The heavy-duty pistol is the machine that delivers incapacitating combat power, accurately and reliably, to the target; at Gunsite and in military, federal, and local law enforcement departments, the preference is for heavy (.40 and above) calibers, particularly the .45ACP."

I can say with "some" certainty it is both the GUN (1911) and CALIBER (.45ACP) that makes this the choice of the countries most recognized and most experienced SWAT TEAMs...

So yes "POLICE" still do carry 1911s...


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SURE SHOT


[This message has been edited by James Montes (edited November 19, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by James Montes (edited November 19, 1999).]
 
The local Sheriff's Dept carries whatever the deputy chooses, as long as it is .45 ACP (Ammo is supplied, guns are bought on an allowance) I've seen a few Sigs and Glocks and at least one HK, but the 1911 is by far the most favored. Mostly Springfields, but a few Kimbers and Colts.
 
Glocks v. 1911's?? I own both; the 70 Series Gold Cups are o.k., but if my life were on the line, I'd go with my Glock 21. BTW, the trigger isn't a double action, like a revolver. Anybody who's ever shot a Glock more than a couple of times knows that. My Glock trigger, using the quick reset method, breaks cleanly at 4#.

And then there's something about having 14 .45's at your behest.

On the other hand, the Glocks wlll fire and function when a 1911 would just be a rusting fair-to-middling club.

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Shoot to kill; they'll stop when they're dead!
 
My local shierff's office selected an automatic a few years ago to replace their S&W .357 Magnums. They wanted either .40 S&Ws or .45 ACPs. The competion rapidly came down to a choice between the SIG-Sauer and the Glock. The evaluation board recommended the SIG_Sauer. The overwhelming majority of the officers who had shot both also wanted the SIG-Sauer. Administrators selected the Glock soely on the basis of significantly lower cost.
Officers don't always get to carry the pistol they want.
 
Large police agencies have some of the same constraints as the military when selecting weapons: training, budget, compatibility, maintenance, etc. The Glock is offered at a very attractive price to LEA's (maybe we consumers subsidize this?), they are very simple to maintain and are reliable,longlasting, have a simple manual of arms (remember, Gaston designed it so that any 18 yr old grunt could pick one up and make it go BANG without thinking too hard), easy to train people on ("KEEP your finger OFF the trigger!")

Most of the cops I know would carry a 1911 if their agency allowed... and the ones who can are happy to be able to do so.Unfortunately, the bureaucrats set the policy.
 
Most government agencies deal on a bid system. While it is possible to buy whatever they want, low bidder gets it most of the time. Here in my area, we use the State bid. The state of Tennessee has done the work and every county or city can purchase at the same price. Beretta has won the last few. Our police carry Baretta 9mm. Shelby County Sheriff's Dept. carries Beretta .40.
BTW: for detectives, plain clothes and admin. the S&W compact 9mm was the winner.
 
I see a lot of 1911s in the holsters of deputies of the Pierce County Sheriff’s Office in Washington.

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“The whole of the Bill (of Rights) is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals. ... It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of.” -Alexander Addison, 1789
 
Glock .40's have been my favorite SHTF sidearms for several years now. At one point, I had a target (24), compact (23) and subcompact (27). I still have the 23 and 24, and love both- especially the 24. In an "open carry" situation, I will always opt for it.

That said, I went shooting Saturday. ( http://www.thefiringline.com:8080/forums/showthread.php?threadid=45953 ) I took my 23 with me. At the range, I tried two Springfields' and a Colt on for size. It seemed to me that I could handle them better than my 23. Why? I dunno, but I believe there may indeed be some truth to a .40's recoil being more substantial than a .45's, or at least the .45 rounds I was using. (All standard pressure. The .40's were 155-grains chrony'ed at an avg of 1150 fps or slightly higher.)

(**Ammo alert**I had malfunctions with all .45's while firing UMC ball. These included several failures to go completely into battery. The pistols all functioned fine with other ammo, including JHP.)
 
When the going gets tough...
Most any pistol will do just fine. Glocks being the opiate of the gun culture masses... work great for nitty gritty duty.
Hmmm - the #1 LE Agency for dirty work chose something other than a Glock. If I remember it right, they chose the Springfield 1911A1...
[feeling smug] Hey! Thats what I got! ;) [/feeling smug]


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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
 
Glocks are user-friendly. Cops forget to engage and disengage safeties. Keeping your finger off the trigger is much easier as shown by the fact that there are less AD's with Police who now use Glocks. Under combat, as proven by Police cases, it is just too complex for an average person to remember to disengage a safety to shoot, and also to engage the safety before holstering.

Agencies do not necessarily go with the cheapest. If they did, they would be going with S&W Sigmas, revolvers or many other guns.
Many agencies that can afford more expensive guns go with Glocks anyway, like Federal LE agencies who seem to have all the money they want. Even Spec-Ops guys that carry nothing but the best, carry Glocks. I know many that do, and they say that at least 1/3 of spec ops guys carry Glocks bought with their own money rather than the issue HK.

The fact is, Glocks just work, every time, no matter what the conditions are, they are simple to train, easy to shoot and go "bang" every time you pull the trigger, for years of constant shooting with little maintenence. What can I say, they're perfect, or at least as close as it gets ;)

Ps- I have a couple 1911's, heavily customized, and my Glocks in my hands, in real combative shooting, are much more accurate and fast. The Glock trigger has the long take-up for safety, but once you are shooting, the trigger reset is so slight, that is shoots like a SA in rapid fire, if you know how to shoot a Glock properly, of course.
 
DGP,

As I mentioned, I have Glocks, and have always like them. I guess I forgot to mention that I have had malfunctions with Glocks as well.

Yes, Saturday I had numerous malfunctions with the UMC cr@p, but I also had malfunctions from my Glock 23 when using high-caps. Let me also say that the Springfields I put rounds through fed 185-grain (what appeared to be Sierra) HP's just fine. My old Glock 21 would malfunction something like 40% or more of the time when I was shooting 185-grn JHP. I am not slamming Glock(s), just want to be sure I present the situation fairly.
 
In the general area where I live, Sig (P229)is the pistol you see most often in LE holsters. Even with departments with a "big boy" policy they seem to be a favourite with LEOs, but you do see a lot of 1911s as well--you never see a Glock. Don't know why, just an observation. I do think the Glockaphiles claim that it is the weapon of choice for LEAs is bogus for many, many reasons.
 
I guess I'm a Glockophile, but I don't portend to make any claims about what l.e.o.'s prefer. I'd venture to guess that l.e.o.'s in most of the large, urban areas have never handled a gun of any kind, prior to becoming sworn officers.

In addition to pricing and the deference that Glock, Inc., gives to L.E., most large agencies put prospective handguns through rigorous testing. Reading the tests that were done by the Miami police dept. was pretty impressive to me.

In GA, all the State agencies use Glocks. They dropped them, loaded, from helicopters at 300 ft. They still functioned. Buried them in sand; soaked them in salt water, etc. Threw them against brick walls. They still worked.

The fact that over 70% of American l.e. agencies use Glocks isn't due to a Glockophile's wishes or imagination.

Other than just shootability, one of the reasons that some of the specialty l.e. units went to custom 1911's is that the 1911 is a far better club, for close-quarters fighting, than is a Glock.

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Shoot to kill; they'll stop when they're dead!


[This message has been edited by WalterGAII (edited November 20, 1999).]
 
I own a Para p-14 limited, and a Glock model 20 in 10mm. I feel that both weapons have advantages and disadvantages. I have carried each one on duty and felt well armed in each case. Glock price =ie low... are probably one of the overwhelming reasons for widespread use in law enforcement circles. Each weapon is completely satisfactory if training and practice are adheared to. I personally carry a 45 in summer months, and the 10mm in fall and winter months due to it's penetration properties on heavily clothed individuals if the need arose. 1911 type model guns are my personal favorite and Glocks come in second. For someone else, get what works for you and practice with it alot and have fun doing so. If it's a Glock so be it.
 
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