Three Year Old Shoots Father with Glock

I'm trying to imagine that I were that cop and my duty gun is my USP9f, could my 3-yr old boy be able to shoot me, given the situation as reported in the news? Let me see:

The boy couldn't grab the thick grip properly, much less put stubby finger/s on the trigger...

The 13 lb DA trigger would weigh a ton for the kid. Nope, not possible...

In cocked & locked, maybe.. But the safety is rather heavy, too, around 5 lbs, and it would be possible for me to notice the manual safety click off. It would take a little more time for the boy to re-establish a proper gripping (but again, the thick grip) to enable him to pull the 5-6 lb SA trigger... possible, but not likely...

But the wife...:rolleyes:


Regards,

New_comer :cool:
 
Terrible tragedy for all involved. One thing about a Glock, if you pull the trigger, it goes bang, everytime. The trigger was pulled, the gun went bang. It is not a defect in the firearm.
 
Let me pose the issue a slightly different way (and let me add my heart aches over this whatever the true story is). Saturday at the local gun shop a guy and his wife/GF are shopping handguns (true story here). The guy working there is a off-duty LEO carry a glock. He steers this first time (never fired a gun before) adult woman towards a glock. He makes no mention of safety features until I can't contain myself and recommend to him he point out the glock's safety features versus other guns (ie, no manual safety, if you pull the trigger it goes bang). I left as they were heading to a lane to test fire a store glock.

Now, lets assume she bought it and has it on her bed stand and is fast asleep tonight (thats why she bought it, right?). You come home late and startle her, so let me ask these questions:
1). Do you want a potentially still half asleep woman (can be a man too) reaching for a gun that if she's not real well trained to keep her finger off the trigger may fire before she realizes what she's doing, just by reaching for it and putting it into her hand and pointing it? OR,
2). do you want that person to have to consciously (or by habit/training) go through the first step of functioning the manual safety? (and hopefully first acquiring the gun, call out, and be ready to flip safety off?

Yes #2 might be too late if there is an intruder 2 feet away, but then she'll never get to it anyway (thats also why my alarm goes on at night too). I'm not going to criticize glock because it's excellent record of doing what it was designed to do is great, but I'll question whether it is a handgun for everyone? Particularly for new or very inexperienced shooters (and ones who don't take a NRA class, AND practice regularly - which I suspect most will not). If I decide ever to buy a glock I will not allow it to be used, or available to anyone but me (and I won't keep it on the bed stand either, I have cocked and locked BHP for that). I know it's everyone's own choices here, but these are my thoughts. BTW, I am not anti SA ,am proud NRA life and GOA member, and really like the open dialogue you can get in this forum
 
Being a Glock owner but not having any 3 year olds running around the house I can't say for certainty whether a DAO or DA/SA pistol would have made a difference in this case, but it seems to me there are some questions regarding SOP for anyone taking off a loaded firearm a house--LEO or not.

Seems to me that anyone taking off their pistol in a residence has to secure it immediately, once it is off their person. Not doing so is inviting this kind of tragedy. The newspapers have run numerous stories of negligent parents or family members leaving guns around the house for a child to find--the grade school shooting in MI last year comes to mind first.

Having said the above, I'd be curious to hear from other LEO's regarding their method of handling their duty weapon in their home and whether their department provided any guidance on that subject.

BTW, I practice IDPA senarios with a guy that's trying to get hired by a local department and he wears a duty rig to our sessions.

Not sure of the name of the his rig but it requires two different movements to get the pistol out of the holster; I don't think an adult could figure this out without fooling with it for a while, let alone a 3 year old . Made me wonder what kind of duty holster this guy had.
 
I think he may have just been questioning if a three-year old would have had a more difficult time squeezing a 10-12 pound trigger vs Glocks 5 pounder.

I'm in total agreement with the original post by DrakeJake. I'm not going to second guess the tradgedy, but things reasonably weighted for us (as adults) are considered HEAVY for three year olds. I doubt it would have happened as easily with a DA... especially one where an external safety is engaged. FWIW, I should back all this up by saying that I DO still like Glocks.

Ben
 
Drakejake, you opened a big old can o' worms here. I did the same thing a few months ago by reporting on a Dallas-area policeman whose 7-year-old daughter accidentally killed herself with her dad's Glock.

I know Glocks are fine firearms, but the Glock Cult will never admit that the design -- light trigger pull with no external safety -- is inherently dangerous. (The same thing goes for Kahrs, but they're much less popular.)

Because of incidents like these, external safeties will probably be required by law someday, even for revolvers. We'll be able to thank Glock for that.
 
When I got my learner's permit, the first vehicle I got behind the wheel of was my mom's 1971 Jaguar XJ6. It was either that or my dad's gigantic Ford pickup. Approaching a sharp left hand turn, my dad said, "lay off the gas....lay off the gas". I didn't, and boy did I fly around that corner, scaring the poop out of me. The low-riding car and the wonderful suspension saved the day. If I was in my dad's top heavy truck, I would've ended up in the ditch.

But, if I was in my dad's pickup and flew off the turn, it wouldn't be the vehicle's fault. It was designed for hauling heavy loads and being high enough off the ground to handle rugged terrain, not speed and a luxury ride. The near accident was MY fault, because I didn't lay off the gas pedal and apply the brakes.

Different model guns are of different designs just like cars. In the end, it's learning how to handle and be responsible with the equipment you have. He left the gun within easy access of a small child. Period.
 
Now, lets assume she bought it and has it on her bed stand and is fast asleep tonight (thats why she bought it, right?). You come home late and startle her, so let me ask these questions:
1). Do you want a potentially still half asleep woman (can be a man too) reaching for a gun that if she's not real well trained to keep her finger off the trigger may fire before she realizes what she's doing, just by reaching for it and putting it into her hand and pointing it? OR,
2). do you want that person to have to consciously (or by habit/training) go through the first step of functioning the manual safety? (and hopefully first acquiring the gun, call out, and be ready to flip safety off?
Click to expand...

I think if "half asleep woman (can be man too)" will "reaching for a gun that she's not real well trained to keep her finger off the trigger" and the gun happen to be equiped with manual safety, then there is quite risk that she (can be a man too) will simply also forget to flip the darn safety lever! (and consequently die)

Do not make your life depending on manual safety, but rather the safety habbits.
 
Because of incidents like these, external safeties will probably be required by law someday, even for revolvers. We'll be able to thank Glock for that.
Click to expand...
No, we'll be able to thank the morons who improperly used tools they had no business using for that.

We will be able to thank brainless legislators and their 'useful idiot' drone army for that.

We will be able to thank Sarah Brady et al for pounding our heads into mush making the sheep think everything that happens to them is somebody else's fault for that.

But most of all, we will get to thank ourselves. For believeing that an inanimate object can be 'responsible' for anything.

Glocks do not have a manual safety. Guess what, they don't have airbags either. If this is not the tool for you, then don't touch it. If you touch it and "it bites you", guess who you have to thank for that.

I am dumbfounded that this is so hard to comprehend.

- Gabe
 
Drakejake:

I think the key fact is rookie. He made a mistake.

I have three small boys at home - ages 8, 6, and 4. They know the house rules. No touch without dad.

Unless its secured in a safe, the gun stays with me.

Leave a gun on the table - what are you crazy? My boys are ALL boy. Cops and robbers is one of the fav games.

And I don't bring hot guns on my person into the house as a contingency.

Bad news.

Glocks don't have frame-mounted safeties. Not for gun newbies. Let's just take accelerator pedals off cars - too many accidents. Let's test the old and the young - after all, they cause many of the car accidents. Let's get rid of bathtubs since tons of kids dronw in them every year. Life itself is full of perils.

But there are dozens of ADs/NGs every year with cops cleaning their guns, horseplay, finger on the trigger while holstering gun, etc.

We had a rookie try a late-night felony stop with three gangbangers several months ago - by himself - no backup or assistance whatever. And they shot and killed him. Cops are people and they make mistakes. That's all.
 
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Never lull yourself into complacency with a safety.

Guns are dangerous and require a healthy respect.

This cop lapsed in judgment.
 
Tol is right on target.

If he just came in the house, why wasn't he wearing his BP vest.

I don't know of any law enforcement agency that allows its officers to use vest penetrating rounds since the majority of police officer shooting involved a police gun used against the officer post gun grab.

Doesn't add up.
 
I don't know about your kids, but my 4-year is cock strong and can pull any trigger on any of the guns we've talked about.
 
Unless someone can determine a magic age when children become strong enough to fire any firearm AND responsible enough not to try, this is a useless debate. Any untrained or untrainable person should not be allowed access to a loaded weapon.

It could have been a two year old and a Blackhawk. Or an eight year old with a safety-on Beretta. The age of the child in this incident may have been a factor in the incident itself, but no generalizations can be made other than what I just stated.


The safety the Glock detractors are looking for is a holster (and a little knowledge). If you're always going to use a holster, why put up with a heavy DA trigger? What's it doing for you?

A weapon that is too complicated to fire when needed is more dangerous than one that fires when mishandled.
 
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A truely sad event. Sigh...

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Now for the commentary:

Pistols without external safeties are in fact easier for untrained individuals to fire, whether intentionally or unnintentionally. How easier is up for debate. Stats have shown, though, that perps take just over a second to fire pistols back at the officers it was taken from when they don't have external safeties and over 10 seconds when they do.

I won't condemn pistols without external safeties, though.

I can easily imagine a similar outcome utilizing a 1911, or any other handgun for that matter.

As for how a three year old child could have drawn the weapon from the holster? Easily, given a level one holster. A little harder given a level two. Next to impossible given a level three. All a moot point, though, as the child should not have had access to any of the above containing a loaded gun, spray, etc.
 
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I've been following this thread since the start,,we heard it on the news here the night it happened....My prayers are with his family.


I'm not a Glock fan...4 years ago when I began to get involved in handguns I was deathly afraid to have a Glock..light pull..no safety. But after several years of shooting...including IDPA, and a CCW, I have actually looked at the possibility of buying a Glock. I still like my Sig's better, but that Glock did exactly what it was suppose to do...pull trigger..go bang.

Do we say..Glocks must have safetys...then what about my Sig..will I have to get one on it too? Or must the trigger pull be heavier.....what is heavy enough...5lb..7lb...12lb?

Different tools need different training..perhaps thats the answer...not the tool..but how to use it properly.

RH Factor
 
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