Threatening lethal force.

Know Your Laws...

+1 brickeye

In NY, the "brandishing" is not defined in the Penal law, but "physical force" is taken to include 'acts of constructive force, such as brandishing or safely pointing a gun at a person'. Brandishing is NOT using "deadly physical force". "Physical force" is taken to include all forcible acts, including mere physical Threats of Deadly Force.

And...
The use of physical force upon another person which would otherwise constitute an offense is justifiable and not criminal under any of the following circumstances:
6. A person may, pursuant to the ensuing provisions of this article, use physical force upon another person in defense of himself or a third person, or in defense of premises, or in order to prevent larceny of or criminal mischief to property, or in order to effect an arrest or prevent an escape from custody. Whenever a person is authorized by any such provision to use deadly physical force in any given circumstance, nothing contained in any other such provision may be deemed to negate or qualify such authorization.


and...
35.15 Justification; use of physical force in defense of a person.
1. A person may, subject to the provisions of subdivision two, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he reasonably believes such to be necessary to defend himself or a third person from
what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by such other person



Anyway, I believe you would be much better served to reasonably draw on someone with the potential to cause you serious physical injury earlier better then later - and give him the chance to see the errors of his ways, then to HAVE to just start blasting. Justifying the threatening of deadly physical force seems to be easier and cheaper then justifying actually USING deadly physical force.
 
Holding criminal at gunpoint

I sa a guy in San Diego holding a guy at gun point for attempting to break into a car....they police took the bad guy away and the man with the gun went inside.:D
 
Showing a weapon halts physical battery !

Once in a former life in San Diego .....I drove a taxi....another taxi driver came after me sayng I stole his fare...which i didnt...he was a very biggggg man from somewhere in africa...I halted his advance by displaying a hunting knife. He wanted to physically assault me. Nothing happened except he left and I went home safe.
 
concerned:

Those things can happen. And they probably are the rule. But do you want to be the exception when the jerk rounds the corner and calls the cops, claiming brandishing and describing your weapon?
 
But do you want to be the exception when the jerk rounds the corner and calls the cops, claiming brandishing and describing your weapon?
Click to expand...
Why aren't you calling the cops before he has time to get around the corner?
 
So what if he ignores you

All these scenarios seem to presume that he starts towards you. Let's use your parking lot/car situation. You see him breaking in. You tell him to stop. He looks at you, then looks back and continues with what he's doing. He hasn't threatened you -- just wants to break in your car, maybe steal it, maybe steal the goodies in there.

You yell again. He ignores you.

No threat. No imminent bodily harm. Do you remain a witness after calling 911? Or can you do anything at that point?

This may sound wimpy, but legally, I don't think you can brandish, threaten, or draw. Strikes me that legally, you must simply witness. Heck, if you go and start using force, aren't you escalating?

FiveG
 
I wanted to post a correction to my previous message above re: NYS and Menacing...

Penal Code § 120.14. Menacing in the second degree. 1992. Amended 1998.

A person is guilty of menacing in the second degree when:

He or she intentionally places or attempts to place another person in reasonable fear of physical injury, serious physical injury or death by displaying a deadly weapon, dangerous instrument or what appears to be a pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, machine gun or other firearm;

Menacing in the second degree is a class A misdemeanor.

Some how 'they' (lawyers?) make the connection that menacing is also "physical force" and so covered under the 'Justification' Section 35.
 
No 1.)
Would breaking into a car with a deadly weapon and preventing you from taking posession of that car with threat of violence with that same deadly weapon be considered a forceable felony.

No2.)
Any citizen,in Fla at least, has the right to stop a crime in progress,
The criminal then has the choice of retreating, escalating, or complying
 
"That doesn't mean that you mustshoot."

Invention45: "Then what did you draw for?"


Um, how about if I drew on a guy who approached me in a dark parking lot holding a bar and saying "Yo, give it up!" and when he sees my gun he pauses and starts thinking it over; does not continue his approach; and I am warning him, "Come a step closer and you'll force me to shoot you!"

That's an instance of drawing, being fully prepared to fire if the threat is not abated with my presentation of the handgun, and observing whether the attacker breaks off the threat and retreats or not.

If he does not retreat, he gets shot.
If he retreats, I've drawn but not had to fire.

Satisfied?

-azurefly
 
invention_45 said:
Also, every gun shop (with a range, can't speak for pawn shops) I have entered has available copies of a very good book about every aspect of self defense and gun law. I can't recall the name, but it was green before the 2005 changes and is tan now and about twice as thick. It is written by a lawyer and is loaded with examples. Buy it and read it next trip to the gun shop.
Click to expand...


I have a copy of that book (a few years old).
It's by Jon Gutmacher, called "Florida Firearms Law"

He bills himself as the author of the ONLY comprehensive book entirely on the laws that pertain to ownership, possession, carry and use of firearms in FL.

It is good reading, but you still end up with him admitting in many parts that things are kind of up-in-the-air until case law settles it. :(

-azurefly
 
A (somewhat) answer to my own question

Here's an excerpt from the statute in one state (CT):

Sec. 53a-21. Use of physical force in defense of property. A person is justified in using reasonable physical force upon another person when and to the extent that he reasonably believes such to be necessary to prevent an attempt by such other person to commit larceny or criminal mischief involving property, or when and to the extent he reasonably believes such to be necessary to regain property which he reasonably believes to have been acquired by larceny within a reasonable time prior to the use of such force; but he may use deadly physical force under such circumstances only in defense of person as prescribed in section 53a-19.

So what does that mean? I guess that you can go over and try to stop the guy at your car physically, but you can't draw or threaten to draw. Here, however, does your possession of a gun cause more problems? Because (a) you have to be careful that the gun doesn't get dislodged, and (b) with your having the firearm, you have the risk that he may later claim you were the aggressor and escalated it. Plus, if he fights back hard, to the point you have fear of imminent bodily harm, does someone later on claim that your possession of the firearm reflected your desire to get to that point?

Not saying you can't protect your property. But, there's a lot to think about, and to be cautious about. Maybe Ayoob's old suggestion about carrying a five in your pocket to throw aside makes sense.

FiveG
 
That's why you have to read more than one statute, the ones on using physical force to stop lawbreakers (like trespassers), the ones about threatening while possessing (even a completely hiden) deadly weapons, the ones about using deadly force, and the ones about weapons and firearms.

It takes a lot of reads to cover most scenarios, but they fit together, at least in Florida they do.

The bottom line in Florida is that you can ultimately protect property using deadly force, but you have to have the stones to do it in a graduated way and the presence of mind to keep the weapon out of it until it becomes clear that your desire to retain your property versus the criminal's desire to acquire it has escalated to a deadly force situation.

There is no statute that directly says you can legally protect property using deadly force, but you can get from there to here and remain lawful.
 
You don't have to run in with fists flying to try to stop the guy.

A hearty
"Hey what the hell"
Will usually get things going in whatever direction they are going to go.

It's unlikely that he will simply ignore you. He's either going to go away or confront you.

A criminal with a crow bar will typically will use that crowbar for a multitude of tasks including escalating things to the point of gun play.
If he decides to exit the scene, all the better
 
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