Thoughts on Training Requirements for concealed carry

That's not really the question presented in this thread,...

That is the foundation of the question presented in this thread!

Do we have the right to defend ourselves without government interference?

Unless it becomes a significant public safety hazard the answer is YES.

It is not and has not been a significant hazard, despite the fears and fear mongering of any number of groups and individuals. As such, there is no reason for *further* restrictions.
 
peetzakilla said:
That is the foundation of the question presented in this thread!..
No it is not. A very specific question relating to carrying a concealed gun has been raised in this thread, and you have framed your questions in a fundamentally deceptive and misleading manner to obfuscate the fact that the issue under discussion is carrying concealed firearms in public. In another words you are framing your question is a manner that omits what many potential responders would consider vital and material information about the background of the question in order to effectively "sucker punch" anyone answering.

peetzakilla said:
...there is no reason for *further* restrictions.
It seems that you think so. I and others do not.
 
Historically, training and similar requirements have been used to deny the use of firearms at all - particularly if any of the requirements require subjective judgments such as "moral fitness" or similar determinations. If gunowners aren't already personally familiar with these problems, a quick look at history will show them.

Also historically, the number of accidental firearms deaths in the United States has ranged from a high of 826 in 1999 (at it's time, this was also a historical low for accidental firearms deaths in the U.S. since we started recording data) to 642 in 2006 (the most recent year for which data is available).

From 2001-2007, non-fatal accidental firearm injuries have ranged from a high of 18,941 in 2003 to 14,678 in 2006 (same source).

For comparison - accidental motor vehicle deaths were 43,664 in 2006 alone. Accidental poisoning deaths were 27,531 in 2006. Deaths from accidental falls accounted for 20,823 in 2006.

Now I certainly agree that training is a good thing and that more people should seek training, even if their state already requires it. However, I think the argument that government mandated training provides more benefits to society than the risk it presents to Second Amendment rights is dubious at best. There just that aren't many deaths/injuries to be prevented by training in the first place; but the history of abusing those laws to deny gun owners their rights is very real and still ongoing in several states.

If the issue is really about "saving lives/preventing injuries" we would have more luck requiring mandatory training to use Raid or a stepladder than we would from requiring training from CCW holders (who are only a tiny subset of the firearms community to begin with).
 
Everyone here is in favor of some kind of restrictions on who can carry a concealed weapon.

There just seems to be disagreement on where that line is drawn.
 
An informational lecture on the local laws and common sense implications - with a brief test - seems a fine compromise to me.

Shooting tests - most are so simple as to be not a predictor of tactical excellence.

I wonder what state by state failure rates are on this? Knowledge test failures vs. shooting failures.
 
fiddletown said:
No it is not.

Are you saying that "training requirements for concealed carry" is fundamentally different from "government restrictions on method and means of self defense"?

Requirements would come from the government.
Restriction would be placed.
Self defense with a firearm would not be available outside those restrictions.


fiddletown said:
It seems that you think so. I and others do not.

and that goes both ways.

Bartholomew Roberts said:
Accidental poisoning deaths were 27,531 in 2006

Fascinating numbers!

So, Fiddletown, even if those "poisons" are in 4 times as many households as are firearms it would still suggest that that common household chemicals are nearly 11 times more dangerous in the hands of the "untrained" than are firearms....
Surely we need people to be trained before they can buy Clorox?

Bartholomew Roberts said:
Now I certainly agree that training is a good thing and that more people should seek training, even if their state already requires it. However, I think the argument that government mandated training provides more benefits to society than the risk it presents to Second Amendment rights is dubious at best. There just that aren't many deaths/injuries to be prevented by training in the first place; but the history of abusing those laws to deny gun owners their rights is very real and still ongoing in several states.

Bingo.
 
Historically, training and similar requirements have been used to deny the use of firearms at all

Not familiar with that--help me.

- particularly if any of the requirements require subjective judgments such as "moral fitness" or similar determinations.

Can't see how "moral fitness" has anything to do with training.

If gunowners aren't already personally familiar with these problems, a quick look at history will show them.

"History" is long, broad and deep. Point out the specifics.

I favor "shall issue" laws, and I've opposed gun registration since I first read about it in the 1944 Gun Digest in 1954.

However, I really do not like the idea of having a person who is under the mistaken impression that he can and should fire at a departing vehicle in a Walmart lot because someone has shouted "stop thief" carrying a gun and thinking that his right to do so makes him some kind of a "sheepdog"--and they are out there. That's too dangerous to me, to my wife, to other innocents, and to the continued existence of the right to carry concealed.

An objective way of providing education can be devised and implemented. We have something in Missouri.

And for anyone who believes that it would constitute an infringement of rights, just wait until one or two well publicized tragedies caused by ignorant people start the ball rolling to eliminate the right to carry concealed or to even have a loaded gun unlocked in the house.
 
I have no opposition to training. Training is knowledge, knowledge is power.
Plain and simple.
Required training...? I grew up in the good state of Vermont that has the carry laws the rest of the country wishes for. I never once witnessed an incident, accident, close call or near miss. Yes, we carried 30-30's and 308's to school when we were 12 during deer season, and 12 or 20's during bird season. None of the kids I knew carried a pistol until later but never with a problem.
Now I live in Tennessee (another fine state, of course) that requires training. I have lived in many other states (6) up and down the east coast and some also required training. I was amazed at the injuries and accidents that I heard about. Maybe it was just the particular areas that I was working/living in (cities), and there not the same culture as I grew up in (very rural) that leads to an unawareness on gun control (controlling your gun vs. having your gun controlled...) but in that regard, I am not opposed to some formal training being required before being allowed to carry.
Lets face it, If a day of training in TN lets me carry in 30+ states, WHY NOT??? That Vermont carry permit I got lets me carry only in Vermont...(and Alaska?) If 4 days at Frontsite or Rattlesnake Ridge or wherever would allow me carry nation wide...SIGN ME UP!!!
 
There just that aren't many deaths/injuries to be prevented by training in the first place

But it doesn't take many to result in having guns outlawed.

Just this week, people were using a whopping total of 44 murder "charges" by permit holders (many involving two people) over a couple of years to justify opposing national CCW legislation. Make any sense? No. Does that matter? NO!
 
peetzakilla said:
Are you saying that "training requirements for concealed carry" is fundamentally different from "government restrictions on method and means of self defense"?...
What I said is there for all to see and read, including you.

peetzakilla said:
...Surely we need people to be trained before they can buy Clorox?
If you wish to encourage further restrictions on the possession and use of household chemicals, that is your right. The political situation with guns is what it is.

Bartholomew Roberts said:
....However, I think the argument that government mandated training provides more benefits to society than the risk it presents to Second Amendment rights is dubious at best. ....
That's really neither here nor there. The reality is that we have training requirements in a number of states, and the lack of comparable training requirements in some other states prevents CCWs from those other states from being honored in certain states with training requirements. The states with training requirements aren't going to abandon them, nor is it likely that the political and demographic circumstances in those states would support recognition of CCWs from states without training requirements. It fully appears that in many cases a training requirement is the political trade off for a "shall issue" CCW arrangement and/or reciprocal recognition of CCWs.

Bartholomew Roberts said:
...we would have more luck requiring mandatory training to use Raid or a stepladder...
Fine, join with peetzakilla and encourage regulation of household activities.

OldMarksman said:
...just wait until one or two well publicized tragedies caused by ignorant people start the ball rolling to eliminate the right to carry concealed...
The requirement in California that effective 1 January 2007 a semi-automatic pistol needs both a magazine disconnect and a loaded chamber indicator to be added to the list of handguns approved for sale came about as a result of a single, well publicized incident.
 
OldMarksman said:
Not familiar with that--help me

Here is an old Brady Campaign hit piece on CCW. Note that they refer to "Lax training requirements" and then the footnote cites Utah having 16 hours of training and no range requirement.

Both of those are objective requirements; but it starts getting real easy to list enough objective requirements to deny somebody a permit. How about just lengthening training to 24 hours? Now we've eliminated everybody who can't afford to take a day off work for the class (or pay the instructor extra for his time).

How about asking people to pass the Air Marshal qualification course before they carry a firearm in public? It is an objective requirement - you either meet it or you don't; but it sure leaves a lot of people who won't be able to avail themselves of a firearm for self-defense.

Make any sense? No. Does that matter? NO!

Yes, it does matter. If we are just going to surrender the idea that legislation should make sense or have some relation to its stated purpose; then we might as well give them all of the guns now; because that is what they ultimately want and once we accept the notion that it is more important how people feel than whether those feelings make any practical sense, we are all hosed.

Mandatory CCW training requirements are only one step above totally useless. Statistically, you cannot prove that they do anything to reduce accidental firearms deaths - the only question is whether that is because there just aren't enough accidental firearms deaths involving CCW holders to make a statistically valid sample or whether it is because the programs themselves flat do not help.
 
Bartholomew Roberts said:
...it starts getting real easy to list enough objective requirements to deny somebody a permit. How about just lengthening training to 24 hours? Now we've eliminated everybody who can't afford to take a day off work for the class (or pay the instructor extra for his time)....
If achieving something is important enough to someone, he'll find a way to do what is necessary. Many of us had to put up with significant inconveniences to accomplish things we wanted to accomplish. And we in the shooting community should also be willing to assist folks who may have difficulties. As I mentioned before, I and my colleagues receive no compensation for our teaching. Instructors could be encouraged to offer classes in the evenings and in short blocks over a period of time to better accommodate people with tight schedules. And RKBA organizations could held subsidize classes for people of limited means.

But I have a lot of trouble with this "I won't get my permit if it's too inconvenient" argument. Carrying a gun in public is a significant responsibility. One should take it seriously enough to be willing to put up with some bother and inconvenience to qualify. And if they aren't willing to put up with the trouble, are they really taking the responsibility seriously enough?

Bartholomew Roberts said:
...If we are just going to surrender the idea that legislation should make sense or have some relation to its stated purpose; then we might as well give them all of the guns now; because that is what they ultimately want and once we accept the notion that it is more important how people feel than whether those feelings make any practical sense, we are all hosed.

Mandatory CCW training requirements are only one step above totally useless....
Nonetheless, they are a fact of life and may well become more common. So if you really object, do something about it. Go to your legislatures.Go to the courts. See how far you get. There's your recourse. But you won't change anything here.
 
You would not believe the firestorm of anger I received when I once suggested that very thing.

I can imagine, especially depending on specific location, where I am it used to be routine to get a short week or two in high school of basic firearm safety. If the priviledge(or right) is there to be utilized by any significant numbers, then basics should start early.
 
Where is the empirical data to show that people from states with less stringent training requirements are less safe than people from states with more stringent training requirements?

If you are going to put restrictions on a person right to bear arms, it seems you should be able to point to more than theory. It is really not clear to me what reasonable amount of training would prepare a person for armed self defense. I suspect so much training would be required to make a measurable difference that virtually no one would get a permit. Certainly a little live fire like Nevada requires does nothing substantial.

Liberal concealed carry has been shown to have a deterrent effect on crime. If you have fewer guns in the hands of citizens, you will have more crime. So let’s see some empirical data showing that the increase in crime (because fewer citizens carry) would be worth the relatively trivial problem of permit members misusing their guns.

Given that there are like three million permit holders and the VPC could only come up with 51 who misused their weapons and were charged with homicide in a two year period, we seem to be arguing about a problem that really does not exist. While I am of course obligated to say that even one death is too many, 51 out of 6 million is trivial. Check out this article, which nicely puts the VPC's study in perspective: http://www.examiner.com/x-3253-Minn...ics?cid=exrss-Minneapolis-Gun-Rights-Examiner

Some people seem to have the instinct that we should appease the gun haters by burdening ourselves with cumbersome rules. This is a road to nowhere. The gun haters hate guns. The only thing that will make them happy is if all gun owners are made felons. All restrictions do is reduce the number of people who exercise their right to bear arms, and therefore the number who are willing to vote to protect the right.

Too many hunters have the same problem. They think if we place tons of rules on hunting, and eliminate the 'bad' types of hunting like baiting or hunting with hounds, the anti-hunters will be appeased. All it does is diminish the number of hunters, reducing our voting clout, and the anti-hunters can never be appeased because they want to eliminate all hunting. They may say they want only reasonable restrictions, but when you ask them what individual restrictions they favor, they favor all of them. The same goes for the 'reasonable gun control' crowd.

Does anyone really find it surprising that the rise in public support for gun rights has happened at the same time that concealed carry was liberalized? They are trends that reinforce each other; as the number of people packing increased, those people would of course want to protect their rights. And their acquaintances would be comfortable with people packing, and maybe think about packing themselves. It has been a viscous cycle for the gun haters (if a virtuous cycle for the Republic).

If an onerous training regimen is required, only the gun nuts will pack. And our cause will be broken. We are only going to protect our rights in the long run if packing and having guns is something normal people do.

Of course stringent training requirements will also impact those most heavily who are busy and poor. Yes, it will disproportionately deter women and minorities from getting permits. It will just be the white male gun nuts packing, a part of the citizenry with diminishing political clout.

Most people who get a permit will never use it. A small percentage of people with permits will brandish their guns. An even small number will actually fire their weapons. A very small number of them, a statistically trivial number, will misuse their weapon, regardless of how much training they are required to have. The VPC will of course trumpet these few cases.

But amost all of the people who have permits will vote in support of the right to bear arms. And all of them are deterring crime.

The experiment in liberalizing concealed carry laws has been an astounding success. The lesson is that law abiding citizens can be trusted to act responsibly. In my state (Utah), famed for its lax training requirements, thousands of citizens can carry their guns to work, church (except the Mormon ones), grade schools, high schools, the state capitol, bars, restaurants, sporting events, college classes and public parks. Given the large number of permits, the number of problems we have had has been shockingly low. The VPC can trumpet the small number of incidents that have occurred, but regardless of what amount of training occurs there will always be incidents to blow out of proportion. Meanwhile, the number of permit holders keeps increasing and the state legislature keeps liberalizing the state’s gun laws. Liberal concealed carry leads to liberalized gun laws.:cool:

That is exactly why Shumer and company are terrified by national concealed carry. The virtuous cycle will begin in California, New York and other places where concealed carry has been restricted.
 
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green-grizzly said:
Where is the empirical data to show that people from states with less stringent training requirements are less safe than people from states with more stringent training requirements?...
You miss the point. It doesn't matter. This is a political issue, and perception is important. Try selling your analysis to the legislature or a court and let us know how far you get.

To repeat myself:
fiddletown said:
...The reality is that we have training requirements in a number of states, and the lack of comparable training requirements in some other states prevents CCWs from those other states from being honored in certain states with training requirements. The states with training requirements aren't going to abandon them, nor is it likely that the political and demographic circumstances in those states would support recognition of CCWs from states without training requirements. It fully appears that in many cases a training requirement is the political trade off for a "shall issue" CCW arrangement and/or reciprocal recognition of CCWs.
If you think you can change things, have at it.

I frequently hear (or see in print) someone saying something like, "The politicians don't trust me with guns" or "The government won't trust us with gun."

Actually, I doubt that the politicians really care. They live lives so removed from the rest of us, our guns aren't really much of a factor for them personally. What they care about is getting and keeping their jobs.

So what it comes down to is that enough of our neighbors, enough of the people in our community, enough of the people in our town, enough of the people in our county, enough of the people in our state, and enough of the people in our country don't like guns, and don't trust the rest of us with them, that politicians who take anti-gun stands can get elected and re-elected (and bureaucrats who take anti-gun stands can keep their jobs).

So we need to remember that part of the battle for our gun rights needs to be waged with our fiends and neighbors in our communities. So if we need to convince our skeptical neighbors that it's okay for us to be carrying loaded guns in public by showing that we are trained and know what we are doing, that may be be political price of "shall issue."

green-grizzly said:
Check out this article, which nicely puts the VPC's study in perspective: http://www.examiner.com/x-3253-Minne...ights-Examiner..
It only puts the VPC's study "nicely in perspective" if it is accepted by skeptical, non-gun folks. The fact that we may like it is meaningless. We're biased.

green-grizzly said:
...We are only going to protect our rights in the long run if packing and having guns is something normal people do....
Nonsense. I'm normal. The people in my classes at Gunsite have been normal. There are many normal people who also take the need for training and being a responsible gun owner seriously.

green-grizzly said:
Of course stringent training requirements will also impact those most heavily who are busy and poor...
If people are serious about it, they will find a way. If they're not serious about it, should they be carrying a loaded weapon around in public?

green-grizzly said:
...VPC can trumpet the small number of incidents that have occurred,...
As som of us have pointed out, it can only take a few to change things for the worse for us. In many states the body politic has little tolerance for incidents involving guns.

green-grizzly said:
...state legislature keeps liberalizing the state’s gun laws....
Where and how. In a few state, perhaps. But there sure hasn't been any recent great rush to liberalize gun laws in the majority of states. How have the gun laws been liberalized in Maryland, Illinois, Massachusetts or New York recently?
 
You still fail to explain why having untrained people carrying guns is a problem. Theory doesn't count. Sounding scary doesn't count. Public perception is just that, perception. It's an unquestionable fact that untrained people carrying guns causes far less problems than do any number of items which are "percieved" as non-issues.

You've done a thorough job of explaining your own perception of the general publics perception but have completely failed to explain WHY this mandatory trained should be required. "because people think it should be required" is irrelevent.

Making rules to keep your job may be what politicians do but it has no bearing on WHY such a rule SHOULD be made. In fact, it's a perfect example of why a rule should NOT be made.
 
peetzakilla said:
...Sounding scary doesn't count. Public perception is just that, perception....
Yes it does, because people vote on such bases.

peetzakilla said:
..."because people think it should be required" is irrelevent.
No it's not irrelevant, because people vote on such a basis. We live in a pluralistic society, and people think many things. What people think will affect the laws that we will have to live under. And people thinking training should be required is a large part of the reason that CCWs from "no training" states aren't recognized by "required training" states.

peetzakilla said:
Making rules to keep your job may be what politicians do but it has no bearing on WHY such a rule SHOULD be made....
Why you think a rule should or should not be made will frequently have no bearing on whether or not the rule gets made. If enough voters support the making of a rule, for whatever reason seems good and sufficient to them, and whether or not you think the rule is proper or their reasons are valid, the rule will be made. And if supporting a rule will help a politician keep his job, he will support it, whether or not you think that's a proper reason to do so.
 
All right. I understand. Public perception rules. Logic and reality have no bearing. Our task is too assess the desires of the public at large and make every effort to comply and capitulate, regardless of the reasoning or rationale behind those sentiments.

I think I've gone around this circle enough times...
 
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