This may be controversial but...

mack: Thanks for clarifying that. I wasn't trying to criticize. I just was wondering if my view of that sort of thing was skewed since I have never run up against it in 52 years.

Wyo: I've sure thought about the matter a lot over the 5 years I've had my CCWL. I'm aware that I might not be ABLE to kill if the matter ever comes up, for practical reasons. Such as I can't shoot in time. And I suspect that reality dictates that of all the circumstances I might find myself in that would require killing, the situation being just right for me to successfully defend myself using deadly force is pretty unlikely. That's why I really try to focus on avoiding problems.

But in the unlikely event I'm faced with the need to defend myself, and in the less likely event it can be done successfully, I'm absolutely, positively willing to do so. I'm adamant that nobody is going to seriously injure me or worse if I have anything to say about it, and there's no limit to what I'll do to stop it.
 
It's true, many people's subcontious would not allow them to kill. Some war films touch upon the subject, in Saving Private Ryan one man is unable to kill. It's hard to overcome the fealings, I myself find it hard to kill animals even at times, suppose it depends how you were raised, but even an animal only has one life that your are ending. If the idea of killing stirs you up its probably not a bad thing, when youre looking down someones gun and you have to take their life, youll probably have less fear, if youre realy concerned about not being able to defend yourself my sugjestion would be to go hunting, if you have respect for the beauty of animals and fauna once you overcome the tension in taking an animal youll be closer to taking a human.. not that its a good thing, i may hunt but dont like to take the life, i personaly prefer shooting at range environments but still find it thrilling to hunt
 
Let me start by saying i am not a minister or rabbi, just educated. Let's look at the words we use. The word kill. Why don't we use the word murder. The Old Testement when translated into English gives light on the subject of word choice. Specifically in the ten commandments, the mistranslation for this discussion lays in the sixth commandment ...You shall not murder. Many early versions of translation say You shall not kill. (check it out, it's cool) Properly translated later it once again became You shall not murder. I don't believe anything is chance in the bible, and it is worded on purpose.

Taking this a step farther, does this mean it is ok to kill, if it is not murder?

The bible makes a diferentiation between kill and murder specifically and on purpose. Murder is taking a life in sinful action, denying another the sacriment of life. When another decides to murder someone, can the person being murdered murder the murderer back? It sound rediculous doesn't it.

Instead they use the gift that God has given us, the ability to protect life.

The reason I bring up this religious look on the subject, is that our secular life gives us the opposite message. Secular belief devoid of a creator, does not differentiate between the words, and they are blurred together many times. We are brought up without paying attention to one above that matters. This leads to our morals, ideals, and in the end our actions!!!

Thanks to anyone who took the time to read this, hoping it does not offend anyone here.
 
invention 45 - no offense taken - I thought it was a legitimate question.

There is a big difference between being willing to kill and wanting to kill.


biglabsrule - I feel you are right that it is a good thing that killing even animals is not an easy thing - I think we would be a better society if everyone at one time in their life had to kill or slaughter an animal and process the meat. It seems that some people are so insulated from the realities of life and death.

Regarding the previous discussion on the commonness of killing human beings - I beleive it is not a common thing when you look at the population of the country and then you consider the number of murders in a given year - it is uncommon. Killing people is abnormal - especially if one is talking murder. While I do believe that virtually anyone is capable of murder and such evil, I also believe that the vast majority of us will never murder, or even have to kill in self-defense.

That is not to say that there aren't some individuals who not only kill people, but who actually enjoy it, there are those individuals out there. Most murderers are socio-paths, who have no feelings or real regard for others, if you have something they want, they don't care, they will do whatever gets them what they want without regard for whoever gets hurt or killed in the process. I see a lot of socio-paths/individuals with anti-social personality disorder every year - the vast majority are mostly law abiding and will never kill anyone, primarily because they don't see it as being in their best interest to do so - they see the consequences, (jail, prison, death penalty, loss of job, loss of money, loss of freedom, social isolation), as far outweighing the benefits. Also most of these individuals would not necessarily take pleasure in killing - killing would simply be a means to an end. There are however those rare individuals who actually do take pleasure from killing - I thankfully have never personally met one - at least that I know. Those individuals are the truly scary ones. The ones that enjoyed war cause they got to kill people, or who liked being an officer or border patrolman because they had the chance to shoot people, or who become mass murders - like Bundy, Gacy, Dahmer, or Pedro Lopez.
 
yomama:

Secular life does not give ME the opposite message. There's a very clear difference between "kill" and "murder" that is reflected in common-sense thinking and even in the law.

To kill is to stop from living. It has nothing to do with the motive of the killer.

To murder is to kill with the intent to do so (first degree) or to act in a knowably deadly way resulting in the death of another (second degree). Both of these are construed to be the knowing killing of another.

Note that, at least in Florida, killing can be lawful. Murder, by definition, can't.

While I was looking at the Florida Statutes regarding murder, I stumbled on this tidbit:

"782.02 Justifiable use of deadly force.--The use of deadly force is justifiable when a person is resisting any attempt to murder such person or to commit any felony upon him or her or upon or in any dwelling house in which such person shall be. "

First, I thought it had to be a "forcible felony". Nope, just "any felony".

Aside from what the law says, I reserve the right to stop you any way I can if you are trying to kill me. That's not religious at all. Luckily, the law seems to agree with my take on it.
 
Interestingly.....

Hi All,
My wife, an elementary teacher, is reading a book titled "Ghosts from the Nursery". The book speaks to the type of care that babies and young children get or don't get and how it affects their future. Case in point, there is a 10 year old boy she knows about, that under went severe abuse as a little one, who is now showing signs of self destructive behavior, threats to harm others and animal cruelty. Hopefully he will get the help he needs though it now may be too late.
Thanks,
Rob
 
BAM! Yomama nailed it.

What kind of dingbat would want to kill anyhoo? Wanting too and willing to is different as was noted. They would have to force me to shoot. To stop, not to kill. If they do die...that was their risk by forcing the situation. Ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

That particular question should be answered for onesself before one straps on a gun. If you have any doubt, put the gun down or keep it for recreation.

I've never shot anyone, but I've been sooo close that I've answered the question of "could I"? Thank God I didn't have to. Afterwards, I was shakin like a leaf from the adreneline but during the incident I was focused and calm. Sounds weird maybe but truth is stranger than fiction.

(OT but relevant...You gotta admire the way Peter cut that dudes ear off when they came for Jesus. No hesitation, just bam. Of course that wasn't what Jesus was here for that time but Peter was on top of the situation and focused.)
 
Is there anyone here who thinks they will have remorse for taking a life after being in a life & death struggle with a BG and coming out on top (i.e. alive) only by killing him 1st?
 
Hale yeah. I would expect it. Who could feel proud for killing someone? Maybe proud for saving someone and yet feel like crap for having to kill someone to do it.
 
Knowing that you saved a life and did the right thing doesn't necessarily mean that you won't feel something about the life that you were forced to take. Not everyone will feel remorse, but some will. There is nothing wrong with feeling bad that a life had to end. There IS something wrong in feeling so bad that you might have to take the life of a BG that your, or a loved one's life is the one taken instead.
 
Shield
Is there anyone here who thinks they will have remorse
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I think I will second guess myself and question the correctness of my actions... NO, I won't feel remorse... just doubt... :(

Mack
I know and have known people who have bought guns for many reasons other than self-defense and who only as a second thought - add or say - of course I'd use it to protect myself and my family. Some of those individuals have not seriously confronted or answered the question - Am I willing to kill
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I can't argue that...
My mindset was on the ones who are CWP holders and who bought their gun for that purpose.
I know some people who have bought guns for self-defense who actually believe that if they show the gun it is enough and they don't keep it loaded
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I think that's just too sweet! :rolleyes:
I'd just wound them if I had to.
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Sweeter still... and they must be very good shooters under pressure! :eek:
I've seen LEOs empty their guns and hit nothing...
Are they stupid or unthinking or are they just in denial? Are they not really confronting and trying to answer the question because they don't want to deal with it?
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Yes. :D
...and planning don't amount to a hill of beans if one cannot answer yes to the question, am I willing to kill another human being
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I AM willing to kill... I have no idea if I WILL BE when the time comes... :barf:
instead of concentrating on hitting the target we will concentrate our focus on our feelings
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I once got 28 X's out of 30 possible... and lost the match... because I "concentrated" on the job at hand TOO MUCH and failed to release the trigger so it could reset for the next shot...

My greatest gun/defense fear is that that might happen again when I am in the greatest need of my faculties.

I am a very accurate shooter... but I wonder if I am a deadly shooter...
 
There may be something in training and TV too.

I have LtCol Dave Grossman's book -- On Killing, but haven't started it yet.

According to the research about 20% of WW2 soldiers actually shot to kill the enemy, more than double that in Korea and by VietNam over 90%.

After WW2 the military recognized this and during training successfully used conditioning techniques to increase the 'participation rate'.

According to the book jacket modern civilian society and especially the media have conditioned us so that we (in general) are now more willing to go to the gun.

Grossman was a US Army Ranger, paratrooper, taught psychology at West Point and currently a professor of military science.

Personnaly I hope to only have remorse if I make a major mistake....Self doubt as Pointer said is almost unavoidable.
 
Wyo. Cowboy says:

"Not everyone will feel remorse, but some will."

I say:

"In today's society, those who don't better damned well fake it."

Jim
 
Invention 45 what do you think our laws are based on :confused:
Yomama , your point is at the root of this thread, if Able had defended himself against Cain's ambush, resulting in Cain's demise there would have been no fowl.
If some have a unclear view between right and wrong, that could cause some hesitation, or lack of action. Granted a speedy decision will help in a favorable out come and perhaps this brings us back to those new phrases like "mindset, training and situational awarness".
My favorite Clint Eastwood movie is the " Unforgiven " thoe prehaps not applicable here it offers insight into taking a life, mind set, and situational awarness.

Like Wyatt said " Be slow but in a hurry "

I guess what I'm trying to add here is , be sure of your self and trust your instinct, then do what needs to be done.
 
If you are forced to kill even in a combat situation you will never be the same. Certain stimuli will cause you to relive the situation over and over. You will have nightmares for the rest of your life. Not every day or even every month, but you will. The military doesn't even prepare you for this. Killing is serious business that has unreversable conciquences. You will think about their family, and god forbid you search them for intell and find a family picture or a picture of their children. The trauma may not show up for months until after the shock of what has happened leaves. Do some research on PTSD to find more than I can share from my experiance.
 
This is the way I see this issue........ I am new to CCW, have NEVER pulled my firearm in defense of myself, family or anyone with me.
In this day and age, the most important thing to do while out in society is to stay ALERT. Keep your head on and use it in a cool fashion.
My reasoning for carrying a firearm is this...........Nobody is going to rob me of my hard -earned money, or take one of my kids or wife. If someone attempts to kidnap one of my loved ones, harm them in any way, or rob me of my $$$, they will be met with deadly force. I will FORCE them to consider the fact that they stand the chance of catching a bullet from my weapon IF they continue to do what they sought out to do. I fully understand that I stand they same chance of catching one myself, but the alternative is something that is NOT an option. If I DON'T defend myself/loved ones, there is a GREATER chance that myself or my loved ones will lose their life.
I don't think it is a stretch to say that 95% of BG's will cease and desist when met with deadly force from their potential victim. Most will prey on someone that either won't or CAN'T defend themselves.
If ever put in this situation, I think the best way to attempt to end it , is to give them an option to walk away with NO shots being fired. I think most would choose to exit the situation. If NOT, it's ON.
 
I'm a new member here, but have been reading for a long time. I appreciate all the great info that I have found. My CCW instructor always said (in Ohio) that if there is a possibility to retreat and run - you have to take it. I don't like the idea of shooting a BG, but I will if I have to. Killing is surely never a pleasant affair, but... if push comes to shove... BANG! Or probably BANG-BANG!
 
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Mack,
I have not read every post here, and am responding to your initial post.
You are correct. At times, the willingness to kill is vital to a person's survival. Many CCW holders do not realize how vital it can be.
It is the difference between Perry Stephens and Brendan McKown. It can be the difference between living and dying.
 
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