This is frightening!: Cash tax or devaluation

DC

Moderator Emeritus
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,32121,00.html

PROPOSAL FOR EXPIRATION DATES ON U.S.
CURRENCY


October 28, 1999


Wired News reported: "US currency should include tracking devices
that let the
government tax private possession of dollar bills, a Federal Reserve
official says. The
longer you hold currency without depositing it in a bank account, the
less that cash will
be worth, according to a proposal from Marvin Goodfriend, a senior
vice president at the
Federal Reserve Bank of Richmond. In other words, greenbacks will get
automatic
expiration dates. 'The magnetic strip could visibly record when a
bill was last withdrawn
from the banking system. A carry tax could be deducted from each bill
upon deposit
according to how long the bill was in circulation,' Goodfriend wrote
in a recent
presentation to a Federal Reserve System conference in Woodstock,
Vermont. The
34-page paper argues a carry tax will discourage 'hoarding' currency,
deter black
market and criminal activities, and boost economic stability during
deflationary periods
when interest rates hover near zero. It says new technology finally
makes such a
scheme feasible. 'Systems would have to be put in place at banks and
automatic teller
machines to read bills, assess the carry tax, and stamp the bills
"current,"' the report
recommends. Goodfriend said in an interview that banks might place a
kind of visible
'date issued' stamp on each note they distributed. /The thing could
actually stamp the
date when the bill comes out of the ATM,' he said..."

Congressional critics say they would
oppose any such move.

"The whole idea is preposterous. The
notion that we're going to tax somebody
because they decide to be frugal and
hold a couple of dollars is economic
planning at its worst," said
Representative Ron Paul (R-Texas), a
free-market proponent who serves on the
House Banking committee.

"This idea that you can correct some of
the evil they've already created with
another tax is just ridiculous," Paul said.
Other economists say a carry tax is not a
wise plan.

"This is going beyond taxing banks for
holding reserves. It's taxing the public for
holding currency too long. That's even
more wild an idea," says George Selgin, a
University of Georgia economics professor
who specializes in monetary policy.

"There are sweeping implications of these
suggestions beyond whatever role they
might play in thwarting a deflationary
crisis... I think it's a very dangerous
solution to what may be a purely
hypothetical problem," Selgin said.

Goodfriend discusses an alternative: The
Fed should at times prevent Americans
from withdrawing cash from their bank
accounts. "Suspending the payment of
currency for deposits would avoid the
cost of imposing a carry tax on currency."

But he concludes that such a move would
have "destabilizing" effects, and
recommends that the Federal Reserve
instead "put in place systems to raise the
cost of storing money by imposing a carry
tax."

The idea has been discussed before.
Economist John Keynes mentioned the
possibility, but dismissed it because of
the administrative hassles involved.

Silvio Gesell, a Keynes contemporary and
like-minded thinker, also suggested taxing
money to allow lower interest rates.

But Goodfriend says that technology has
advanced since then. "In light of recent
advances in payments technology and
the less-than-satisfactory alternatives,
imposing a carry tax on money seems an
eminently practical and reasonable way
[to proceed]," he writes.

He said the Federal Reserve has
technology that would make it "feasible,"
but refused to give details.

One reason for a carry tax, he says, is
the reduced influence of the US central
bank when prices are not increasing and
inflation is close to zero. During such a
period, banks are less likely to make loans
-- even if the Fed tries to spur an
economic expansion through open market
operations.

But if the government taxes the currency
holdings of individuals and banks through
an occasional carry tax, they may be
inclined to lend money even at a negative
interest rate in order to avoid holding on
to it.

"This proposal is made well in advance of
any problem we have in the US. It's not
an emergency proposal at this point," he
said. The report says Congress would
have to pass legislation allowing such a
tax.


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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!



[This message has been edited by DC (edited October 28, 1999).]
 
Ah, yes. They must be talking, again, about that nasty "War on Drugs". We all know these cash hoarders. They live in our neighborhoods and drive Mercedes Benz's. They have no visible means of support, yet live a lavish life style. Personally, I see them all the time....well, at least on Court TV. If only we could ferret them out, our children might be safe.

DC-
How dare you question the Party Line?! ;)
Rich
 
Keynesian economics and big brother make quite a pair. I'm sure the gubment is simply trying to protect us from those evil drug lords and that naughty inflation. This scheme wouldn't have anything to do with tracking money and purchases and helping the IRS know who has what. No, couldn't be that.



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"...the probability of the people in power being individuals who would dislike the possession and exercise of power is on a level with the probability that an extremely tender-hearted person would get the job of whipping-master in a slave plantation."
Prof. Frank H. Knight
 
1) Oy! Wait until Ivan sees THIS one!!

2) How could any American even suggest that keeping money at home is an event to be punished?

3) I believe this is a trial balloon to see how we react to it and how much the government might be able to burden us with successfully.

4) Wait until the mention the billions of dollars overseas as a reason to "safeguard" our money. Grrrrrr :(
 
This seems like a rehash of the 70s when there was talking of changing the color of the currency, moving the decimal place to the left, and then forcing the public to turn in the old, "useless" currency at say a 110-11 rate (this was during the inflationary binge).

A cumbersome way around this, if it ever came to pass (which I doubt), is to have rolls of coins -- might make the mattress a bit lumpy though.

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If you can't fight City Hall, at least defecate on the steps.
 
That's supposed to be 10-1 (damn keyboard).

That's just one more reason the Socialists hate gold -- you can't declare a 1-ounce coin weighs only 1/2 ounce, or control it in ANY manner. Stuff for a whole 'nother thread.

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If you can't fight City Hall, at least defecate on the steps.
 
Tracking Cash?

Sounds awfully goofy to me. We can't even keep track of people let alone every slip of green paper in his pockets.

What I can see is the universal use of Debit/Credit Cards and tracking things that way. Visa is already a world currency - and you cant buy anything on the internet with out a card. (there are a few sites that off COD terms - but please...)
After the homoginization of poly-dollars, such taxation could be possible - taxing money in checking accounts or such things.

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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
 
This is the same ol same ol, just one of the many intrusions into our private lives. Similar to the form that must be filled out if you withdraw 10,000 or more of YOUR money, and dont think of taking 1000 or 500 increments to avoid this form it's called pillaring and is illegal hows 5 years imprisonment and or 250,000 fine? Just for taking out your own money.

Buy gold and silver and maybe even a few bulloats.
 
This scheme sounds like an excellent way to force folks to use credit or cebit cards, (which are so much easier to keep track of) doesn't it, George?

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"...the probability of the people in power being individuals who would dislike the possession and exercise of power is on a level with the probability that an extremely tender-hearted person would get the job of whipping-master in a slave plantation."
Prof. Frank H. Knight
 
Methinks the technology is in place already. The only way this can materialize is if we allow it to. If it does, the value of the U.S. Greenback will plummet never to return. Maybye there is merit to owning gold.

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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
 
Yes sir, Dennis, I was ready to post this same thing. I have it right in front of me. DC beat me to the punch. I am glad because this shows how arrogant the Fed Reserve can be. I cant imagine Congress going along with this draconian proposal,BUT in 1913 who would have even dreamed of a central banking system controling our economy and money. I kind of harp on the Fed Reserve,but with good reason i think. Yes, Beararms, gold is not a bad thing to own. I should quote what Woodrow Wilson said after he signed the Federal reserve Act into law,butthat is old history. But I will say this. How many more taxes will the people put up with? Are you listening Mr. Good friend? you are no friend of the American People and neither is the Federal reserve System.
 
Yes gold is good to own, but the problem with it, platinum, silver, gems and anything else with intrinsic value....is that its effectively unspendable in our culture. Jewelers must keep records and are routinely audited. You'd have to smuggle it to Mexico and thats a crime. You can't go to the grocery store, plunk down an ounce and walk out with a month's groceries.
FDR, the miserable socialist, intentionally mucked that up for us. Actually, the barter system is the only way to circumvent.

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
DC: For over 20 years that I know of, there has been a growing sub-culture involved in "off-the-books" business activity. It's driving the gummint economists nuts. (No drive; short putt.)

The only problem with using gold for purchases in a number of businesses--outside the chains/mega-stores--is making change. Which is why a number of folks buy junk US silver. But the only state-level record keeping has to do with sales taxes collected by a coin-dealing business. There are some politically correct cities like Austintatious which want anti-theft record-keeping attempted. Rotsa ruck. But the feds don't care how much gold you have...

Lots of barter going on, also. I'll haul you a load of gravel; you type up a legal brief or de-bug my computer, fer instance. And the number of folks on "welfare" (in a generic sense) who will work for $4/$5 an hour under the table is quite large.

Back to the original post: I guess that working at the Fed. Res. is like living in Kalifornicate; you lose 2 IQ points per year there. What a wonderful way to drive an entire population nuts! "What? My danged money's not worth nuthin'?" Guess what comes next, as the chrome-domes try to explain THAT to Georgia Crackers, WesTex Rednecks or up-north Swedes!

As far as only having credit-card electronic money, how does Momma send the kid for only a loaf of bread, but no candy? I pity any elected official who has to face such a Momma!

The world is full of Ivory Tower idiots. Sometimes their nuttiness gets undeserved publicity. At some point, even the "Sheeple" get POed, which is very bad for the Establishment.

:), Art
 
Does anyone here see paper money as storehouses of value? Bonds, public debt, IOU's are not wealth. This is a true Keynesian illusion. Without going into to detail about a gold standard, 1. Gold although not very liquid could get you out of a spot anywhere on the planet compared to a dollar because it is universally recognized. Good for foreign trade. 2. Gold is tied to the earth. The earth moves very slowly, we live in a geomorphic blink, and people can only get so much gold out of her reasonably. Governments are much more promiscuous and are very fast in spending the labor of people who have not yet been born. Tie a commodity of the earth to the government and you not only slow, but keep honorable its monetary actions. 3. Most of us only accept as much of this "paper currency" as is necessary to pay our bills. It would be nice and it is quite possible that our paper money, backed by gold, could become a dependable storehouse of value again (remember silver certificates?). Personally, I want my money (like my labor) to maintain intrinsic value.
 
Art...
yep barter and trade is big in my country too.

That pesky venado messing with my fruit trees gets me 5 dozen of Rosa's homemade tamales....beef or chicken :) :) Yummy!

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
Marvin Goodfriend is an idiot.
Marvin Goodfriend is an ass.
Marvin Goodfriend is representative of all that is wrong with America today.
Marvin Goodfriend is a turd disguised as a person.

Ron Paul is a breath of fresh air.

Tie this in with the bulk cash smuggling act
H.R.240
Bulk Cash Smuggling Act of 1999 (Introduced in the House). H.R.240 is worded to bring back that old time favorite. Debtors Prison.

C.A.N. needs expanded to cover the entire BOR.

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CCW for Ohio action site.
http://www.ofcc.net

[This message has been edited by Hal (edited October 30, 1999).]
 
You know, I'm about to get enough of these yahoos. I would actually applaud one who had the balls to stand up on his hind legs and demand what they all really are after: a bar code tattoo on each and every one of us. Yes, I would applaud him and then give him a twenty one gun salute.

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Byron Quick
 
Oh you silly, apprehensive, ignorant citizens. Just quit worrying about
this, ok? There is nothing here to hurt you. We are trying to protect you -
you and your children - from the horrors of those gun-shooting dope
dealers. That’s all! It’s just part of our War on Drugs! Surely you’re not
for drugs!

Oh, by the way, you there, number 462-42-4339 and you over there in
the corner 651-85-4365, please come over here a minute. Our records
show that you each received cash last February but we have no record of
you depositing it into an eligible, monitored account or spending it at an
eligible, monitored retail store. You will have to fill out these forms to
indicate where you received the cash, exactly what for, and its disposition.

It’s no big deal, really, it’s just for our records.

What’s that? No, it’s not mandatory, but if you don’t fill out these forms
satisfactorily for the American Board of Money Substitute Tracking,
Tracing, and Disposition, then we must confiscate your home and your
vehicle, fine you up to $10,000 and imprison you for 5 to 15 years for
federal money substitute disposition and tracking fraud, and put your children in a foster home, ok? I mean, if we
didn’t enforce the law like you all suggested we’d never be able to stop
little Johnny from smoking a joint, now could we?

Just fill out these voluntary forms. There’s only eighteen pages... on both
sides.... Why yes, the print sure is small, isn't it?
 
Wow. This is certainly a bit quirky.

'The longer you hold currency without depositing it in a bank account, the less that cash will be worth, according to a proposal from Marvin Goodfriend, a senior vice president at the Federal Reserve Bank of Richmond.' Uh, Marvin, don't look now, but some of us ran into that concept in the '70's. It was quaintly termed 'inflation' back then. ;)

I agree with your perspectives that this has much more to do with drug and other illegal business, as well as overseas cash.

This discussion about getting the banks to lend money seems absurd. Maybe I handled it wrong, but whenever I get a home loan, for some reason they don't hand the cash over to me. ;) Maybe I don't look trustworthy?

I don't think very many people truly 'hoard' currency. They're after the illegal business, and they've already done such a good job of making more such 'illegal' businesses ...

If they do this, it will certainly brighten up an otherwise tarnished precious metals market ... ;)
 
Games governments play with money. As this nation's economy grew, carrying gold or silver coin became pretty cumbersome, so
a warehouse receipt was issued instead, with
the words "This certifies that there has been deposited in the Treasury of the US
$20 (etc) in gold coin, payable to the bearer on demand". It sounded like Moses quoting an 11th Commandment. (BTW, it was a collector's piece - neither of us was in circulation then!)

After the Federal Reserve was created, new bills started carrying this message. "This certificate is legal tender for all debts, public and private and may be redeemed for lawful money at any Federal Reserve Bank" (or words to that effect).

This one may be an Urban Legend. In the inflationary 70s, someone sent in a $20 bill to the Feds and demanded "lawful money" (ie gold or silver). The Feds sent him two $10 bills. The guy raised such a stink -- "They're giving me two IOUs of $10 each for one $20 IOU", the wording was changed.

Take a look at today's currency. It says "Federal Reserve Note" (IOU). The small print
over the Fed District seal now says "This note is legal tender for all debts public and
private" (ie it's money because we say it is).

Fiat currency will only work as long as there is confidence in it. Now they propose to water down this "money" with a time stamp. Which card will the government misplay to bring this whole house of cards down?

It sounds ridiculous now, but with the ongoing dumbing down of the citizenry, it will be "cool" 10 years from now.


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If you can't fight City Hall, at least defecate on the steps.
 
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