Thin wall Apartment Defensive Ammo

You owe him an apology. Books aren't stacked in a bookcase, they are lined up, and a bunch of six inch books is not a good thing for stopping a heavy bullet. Hell fire and perdition, why don't you point out something sensible, like the fact that a book case has a whole lot of empty space? That a person rarely has enough books to cover a significant section of wall?
You’re right. I was thinking about books stacked end-to-end, which do a terrific job of stopping bullets. T. O’Heir, I apologize. I’m so used to you posting bad information that I jumped on your posts before I completely thought it through.
 
"...Bookshelves full of books do a..." No, they don't. Don't believe what you see on YouTube either.


The bookshelf full of books certainly did well in the test. Do you think the test on YouTube was faked? Why would the shooter fake such a test? Why should I trust you typing on the Internet over a test I can see performed on camera?
 
The bookshelf full of books certainly did well in the test. Do you think the test on YouTube was faked? Why would the shooter fake such a test? Why should I trust you typing on the Internet over a test I can see performed on camera?


the overlords of the world wide information denial system want you to stop asking stupid questions and do what you are told. Go watch a video about twerking kittens and stop trying to solve complicated problems...

BTW, from my research, don't use cinder blocks as bookends. They can be messed up pretty well by any heavy bullet .38 special in my experience. Bookend your cases with sandbags.
 
One of the things people seem to forget about when it comes to wall penetration is that, unless you live in a destitute area where people don't own furniture, there's usually furniture in other rooms. Cabinets, bookcases, dressers, chairs, couches, doors, appliances, etc. On the off chance you miss a shot and it goes through the wall, there's a very high chance that the bullet will hit something like those things that will stop it or slow it significantly and a low chance it will hit a person.

That said, if I'm in that type of situation where wall penetration is a concern, I use as light weight a bullet I can get that also is able to penetrate tissue deep enough to be effective, so no Liberty Civil Defense for me, I like the Inceptor ammo more.
 
I use DRT HP for my personal defense rounds. I have found that they will stop in an apartment. Long story to include a negligent discharge. Went into my floor, subfloor and stopped without going into my downstairs neighbors living room. If I'd rather have ammo that will transfer all of its energy into it's intended target then over penetrate.
 
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If I'd rather have ammo that will transfer all of its energy into it's intended target then over penetrate.

I'm on the other side of that coin. The problem is, there is no magic bullet that ALWAYS penetrates just enough, and no more.

A bullet that transfers all its energy and does not exit might be considered the ideal, but what if that still results in failure to stop the attack?

Like wise a bullet that penetrates completely can also fail to stop the attack but you do have the potential benefit of two holes for the juice to leak out, rather than one. Downside? if it exits the bad guy, it could penetrate something else.

There's no free lunch, you need to decide which factors matter most, in your personal situation, and choose accordingly.

I live in the country in a house that includes concrete and stone walls in some of the interior walls as well as the exterior and no other people in line of sight for over 200 yards. I want something that will reliably poke a hole all the way through anyone I need to shoot.

If I lived in a cardboard box with people on all side and above and below on the other side of a couple of cardboard walls (and I have lived in those kinds of places), my choice would be quite different.
 
walls, floors and motel rooms

Regards bullets through floors and walls. I can probably put my fist through a sheet piece of drywall. I cannot put my fist through a sheet of plywood. I'm not surprised that flooring stopped a bullet, it's just plain stronger and tougher than a typical 2x4 /gypsum interior wall. Comprised of a floor covering and a plywood sub-floor, there is no comparison to typical interior wall. I'm glad your downstairs neighbor didn't get shot, but walls and floors are not constructed equally and are not a valid comparison for penetration.

I've spent some time thinking about SD shootings in a motel room, where distances will be short, and there well may be occupants on either side and below. I believe any acceptable handgun cartridge will sail right through a motel room wall, easy. Same of course for buckshot/slugs, and I would think most all .223 ammo. My solution in those locales, once established indoors, is indeed a takedown 12 ga with heavy birdshot, not anemic 1 oz loads of fine shot, but 1-1/4 oz loads of #4. I'd might use #2 if I could find it anymore in 2-3/4" shells, but cannot. Were I living in a situation where circumstances were similar, as in an apartment complex, I'd go the same route.

Though I hesitate to reference this as proof, a guy named Harrel has a video channel of shooting what he calls a "meat target" at short distances with assorted bird shot. It's an interesting video.
 
T. O'Heir said:
...how do you weigh that risk..." If you hit anything or anybody with a bullet that goes through a wall, you are guilty of a felony. Kill somebody and that felony is manslaughter or 2nd degree murder depending on where you are. Kill somebody's dog and you'll be sued(and lose) into next year. You are 100% responsible for where every bullet you fire ends up.
You speak with absolute terms about topics that are not absolute. Legally, some places have concepts like "felony murder," where the criminal receives the charges for deaths involved in the situation. This does not apply everywhere, but don't think for a minute that a one paragraph summary covers the self-defense and liability laws in all jurisdictions (even in one state or country).

As to the OP, aside from the construction questions already posted, I would recommend a suitably loaded rifle or shotgun for home defense (less risk of penetrating walls if you hit the attacker first, and long guns are easier to be accurate with). Additionally, if your defense plan does not include moving, you can add furniture like heavy book shelves to provide a better backstop. If you don't have to move in a defensive situation, it is much easier to defend a funnel/choke point, and easier to prepare a safe/safer backstop.
 
I've spent some time thinking about SD shootings in a motel room, where distances will be short, and there well may be occupants on either side and below. I believe any acceptable handgun cartridge will sail right through a motel room wall, easy.

Maybe its because I stay in the cheapest places, but most of the ones I can remember were concrete, sometimes poured but often block walls. These will have a much different effect on handgun bullet penetration than the common residential sheetrock and studs.
 
dunno

Well, maybe that is the case, I dunno for sure......walls seem thin at times!

A block wall certainly would catch most if not all buckshot and common handgun loads.
 
I have fired a heck of a lot of ordinary rounds through cinderblocks. Were the blown through bullets still terribly dangerous? Oh, sure, they would draw blood and possibly cause death or serious injury. Do you want to know how to be the most conscientious about shooting in a room that may have cinder block walls and may have people on the other side? High velocity and light weight lead to break up and deformation against hard surfaces such as a layer of drywall and two layers of concrete mix. A heavy bullet of greater sectional density, fired with similar energy levels, will be more likely to pop through the things instead of turning into spall within the first few inches.

What are the chances that a standard handgun round of .355 or so diameter will poke its way through a cinder block wall, retain a lethal amount of energy, and actually strike and kill or seriously injure a guest in the other room?

My god, that's slim. The chances of a gunfight inside a hotel are pretty slim. I've worked at hotels and never had it happen. The chance that a round will strike the weak section of the block are maybe one in four, the chance that the round will be able to punch through with lethal energy remaining is getting pretty near ridiculous odds, and the chance that a stray round from a hotel gunfight could do all of those things and still hit someone in heart or cns and actually penetrate to a dangerous depth are maybe getting into the area where you might die in a shark attack. What makes the whole debate kind of screwy is that may never find a multi story modern hotel with cinderblock walls. And there, right there, you have the most questionable thing of all. How often will a person be in a situation that would actually have that risk? Most likely, only within the home. Depending on the home, the location, the chances of hitting a bystander or sleeper in another home is still really slim. Can a bullet really go through two layers of outside wall and maybe interior walls after dodging cars, utility poles, furniture, appliances, etc, and still manage to hit one of the small number of small targets there and cause potentially lethal injury?

Will buckshot go through a block wall? Depends. If you fire at point blank range, ten feet for example, almost certainly. That stuff hasn't had a chance to spread, you aren't hitting that wall with a bunch of scattered lead pellets. That massive wad of lead pellets will dust right through the first layer. A great deal of the energy will be expended dusting the concrete and smashing the pellets, so it may be stopped at the second layer, or it may penetrate so ineffectively that it won't even draw blood. How would I know? I've never tried it. But we are still looking at the same run of probability. the chances of a round of buckshot putting a lethal hit into a person on the other side of a wall borders on absurd.

There are plenty of multi story apartment buildings still going up on wood frames, one is being built just a few miles from here.

There's always a chance, however slim it is, that a magic bullet will go through kennedy's head, a piece of the car, connelly's leg, a secret service agent's wooden leg, and still be found a mile away stuck in a phone book between the Bs and the Ss. A person should still take the responsibility to minimize those risks and not deliberately arm himself with weapons like the 88 magnum.
 
While I think over-penetration is often made out to be more of a bogeyman than it really is, the question is a valid one so here goes: Since you posted this in the handgun forum I assume that, for whatever reason, you're not really interested in load selections for a shotgun or rifle (not judging, perhaps a handgun is all you have, I don't know). Since you specifically said 9mm and .357 I'll restrict my recommendations to those.

If, by .357 you meant .357 Magnum, I'd say the best would be either Federal or Remington's full-power 125 gr semi-jacketed hollowpoint so long as the recoil and blast isn't too much for you (again, not judging, these loadings are quite a handful in lightweight revolvers and/or those with short barrels). The reason that I recommend these is because their high velocity (1400+ fps in a 4" or longer barrel) and relatively fragile bullet typically cause very violent expansion (usually to the point of moderate fragmentation) and moderate penetration (generally 11-13" in ballistic gel). This, IMHO, is a happy medium of meeting or at least coming very close to the FBI's 12" minimum for penetration with minimal risk of over-penetration.

If you meant .357 Sig, I'm afraid I really can't offer much advice as I'm not as familiar with the ammunition available in that caliber so I can't make much in the way of a recommendation (I don't own nor have I ever been particularly interested in .357 Sig).

In 9mm, it really depends on how much recoil you're willing to tolerate, what ammo is available to you, and what sort of ammo you're comfortable with using in your gun. On the lower end of the recoil spectrum, Hornady 115 gr Critical Defense and Speer 115 gr Gold Dot both seem to offer the type of penetration and expansion characteristics you'd want and on the higher recoil end Cor-Bon 115 gr JHP would work well. If you're comfortable using +P+ ammunition in your gun and you can find it (+P+ is usually restricted to Law Enforcement product lines so it can be difficult to find) Speer 115 gr +P+ Gold Dot and Federal 115 gr +P+ Hi-Shok are both solid performers which offer moderate penetration and aggressive expansion.

Please bear in mind that nearly any centerfire handgun will easily penetrate most interior walls, so you really can't compensate the risk to your neighbors that missing your target poses through ammo selection. Most any JHP handgun bullet will clog and act like FMJ if fired through intermediate barriers like wood and sheetrock, so marksmanship is really the best preventative measure you can take.
 
Just read a few post's here and I agree you'll probably not find ammo that won't penetrate your apartment wall's. Think just a bit more. I have a load for a 243 using a 75gr Hornady V-Max bullet. Shooting at a paper target taped to 2" of styrofoam at 200yds, the bullet's made it through but blew up doing it. I found the bullet's all over the ground right behind the target. make's me wonder if some very light for caliber bullet couldn't be made for say the OP's 357 or 9mm that would explode like that on a gyp board wall? Never gave much though to that before. Probably be a good idea for apartment dweller's that have a gun for protection. Bullet wouldn't necessarily need to penetrate much. I'd think the sting of being hit would drive off a bad guy, that and the sound of a gun going off.
 
Just to add --

I know from personal experience a 45 JHP will easily penetrate a single story homes 5/8" Drywall FireCode ceiling a 4 foot R30 insulated attic space, 5/8 roof sheathing and a concrete roofing tile. :) - No it was not me!
 
Many many many school kids armed with a shotgun can hit over 1/2 of the flying birds they shoot at with a shotgun. Some hit over 80%. How many master class PPC IPSC or IDPA shooters could hit 50% of their shots on flying quail using a handgun? I have knows about 6 in my life. I could not count how man school kids I know that can do it with a shotgun.
So if a kid starts to hunt at about 12 years old and can shoot very well in 2-3 years, and make better hits on faster targets that are much smaller then a man, how would you think a handgun is in any way "better" for protecting yourself in a house or apartment, where you know the battle ground and the enemy doesn't?
Some real food for thought here...I'd add that that a handgun's chief attribute for defense is its portability...given a home defense goal, portability becomes a distant 2ndary goal. And real combative skill can come with the long gun in a shorter training period that than with a handgun. YMMv. Rod
 
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