They're terrorists, not "freedom fighters"

[CarbineCaleb]

Some Heartfelt Words from Isaac Newton

Isaac Newton, whom many consider the greatest intellect of all time, had this to say:

If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.

He is not being sentimental, he is not kissing up, because he is describing people who are long dead. He is aknowledging that his contributions would never be possible without the contributions of some great minds who came before him, who laid the foundation. It's not a nice thing to say - it is a fact.

 

[Baba Louie]

I have never read the Koran, but I have heard it said that it calls for the killing of all infidels (non-Muslims).

http://www.ethicalatheist.com/docs/islam_infidels.html
And do remember, even the burning bush told Moses crew to go into the land of milk and honey (Canaan) and SLAY ALL who lived there...

They're terrorists, not "freedom fighters"

Keep in mind the semantic exercise that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, i.e. Colonial Rebels circa 1776 to King George III v. a small & limited number of American colonists... Or Menacham Begin to Palestine occupying Brits v. a small & limited number of displaced Jews
http://redlandscostales.blogspot.com/2004/11/prime-minister-menachem-begin.html

But, all is well, fine and dandy since no commercial airliners have been flown into American landmarks lately, we almost get strip searched when flying, Uncle Sam can read our email or find out how overdrawn we are at the bank, see what books we check out at the library, etc. and well... we did P.O. the UN, the French and the Russians all in one fell swoop.

Let me ask this one question (rhetorical... no answers needed). 5 years ago, what happened in Baghdad stayed in Baghdad. Since March of 2003, what happens in Baghdad has affected how many number of families here in the USA? How about families in Iraq?

While that is a selfish and pointless question, as the Iraqi citizens were in no position to reclaim their own freedom, once again it seems that US/UK (and other Coalition) personnel and their families are paying the price for someone else's liberty and freedom to go from the frying pan into the fire. Once the US/UK led Coalition leaves Iraq (we WILL leave there someday, right?) the poor citizens will be faced with Angry Kurds, murderous Sunni's, Iranian Shiites and who knows how many outsiders, all coming into a nation the size of the Carolinas with the intent to destroy whatever the US leaves in it's passing.

Still, it is better that they do that there, than here.

Leaving us with, in 2008, more than likely, a Democratic administration, maybe a Democratic House, new legislation to keep the "Terrorists within" under the Fed. Gov't's magnifying glass... and NOW... I ask you, WHO's a "Terrorist" and WHO is a "Freedom Fighter"?

Kinda depends upon who is asking the question... doesn't it?

 

[Capt. Charlie]

Well, that makes two so far that have quoted only half of my question. I also asked if it was a religion of peace and good will (paraphrased). The old saying goes, "know your enemy". Truth is, I'm still trying to figure out just exactly who my enemy is. The one blatant fact that stands out is that the terrorists who hate America so much are all Muslim. Why? What is the connection? I know nothing of the Muslim faith, but I am trying to understand here. Are those that are trying to kill innocent men, women, and children a perversion of their faith, or are Muslim citizens of the US and other countries privately thinking that they'd like the rest of us dead, based on their beliefs? I'm asking for an honest answer here, and not sarcasm, emotional responses, or other flaming.

 

[CarbineCaleb]

Capt: I have not read the Koran either, but I have heard religious scholars discuss it, so that is the view that I am presenting here - as to whether the Koran advocates violence against non-Muslims as a matter of course, I think the answer is no.

Now, as to whether there might be passages in the Koran that indicate that one should pursue righteous violence against enemies... that is a different matter, because I believe there are. However, as Baba Louie points out, the Christian Bible also contains such passages. I have had a minister who received a theologic degree who told me one time - "Well noone ever said that Christians were pacifists and had to turn the other cheek..." and proceeded to point out examples of "righteous violence" in the Christian Bible. So, I think if you are looking for that, you can find it in either the Christian Bible, OR the Koran.

There also seem to be messages of peace, kindness and tolerance, in each of these religious tomes. What you take from there seems to be like one of these Rorschach ink blot tests. Your interepretation tells as much about you and your motives as it does about teachings of the book.

 

[Handy]

Anyone still believe these scum are fighting the "US invasion," as opposed to attempting to destabilize the democratic process?

If they don't believe that the "democratic process" is anything more than the US installing a puppet government, is there any difference between those two?

 

[CarbineCaleb]

Capt: At least with regard to Bin Laden, who masterminded the attack of 9/11 (which is unrelated to our invasion of Iraq), you may find the following quotes from Bin Laden interesting. Mind you, he is making them to journalists, and they therefore speak as much to his message as to his beliefs.

The ordinary man knows that [Saudi Arabia] is the largest oil producer in the world, yet at the same time he is suffering from taxes and bad services. Now the people understand the speeches of the ulemas in the mosques--that our country has become an American colony. They act decisively with every action to kick the Americans out of Saudi Arabia. What happened in Riyadh and [Dhahran] when 24 Americans were killed in two bombings is clear evidence of the huge anger of Saudi people against America. The Saudis now know their real enemy is America. (1996)

Muslims burn with anger at America. For its own good, America should leave [Saudi Arabia.] ... There is no more important duty than pushing the American enemy out of the holy land. ... The presence of the USA Crusader military forces on land, sea and air of the states of the Islamic Gulf is the greatest danger threatening the largest oil reserve in the world. The existence of these forces in the area will provoke the people of the country and induces aggression on their religion, feelings and prides and pushes them to take up armed struggle against the invaders occupying the land. ... Due to the imbalance of power between our armed forces and the enemy forces, a suitable means of fighting must be adopted, i.e. using fast-moving, light forces that work under complete secrecy. In other words, to initiate a guerrilla war, where the sons of the nation, and not the military forces, take part in it. (1996)

As for their accusations of terrorizing the innocent, the children, and the women, these are in the category of 'accusing others with their own affliction in order to fool the masses.' The evidence overwhelmingly shows America and Israel killing the weaker men, women and children in the Muslim world and elsewhere. A few examples of this are seen in the recent Qana massacre in Lebanon, and the death of more than 600,000 Iraqi children because of the shortage of food and medicine which resulted from the boycotts and sanctions against the Muslim Iraqi people, also their withholding of arms from the Muslims of Bosnia-Herzegovina leaving them prey to the Christian Serbians who massacred and raped in a manner not seen in contemporary history. Not to forget the dropping of the H-bombs on cities with their entire populations of children, elderly, and women, on purpose, and in a premeditated manner as was the case with Hiroshima and Nagasaki. (1996)

We declared jihad against the US government, because the US government is unjust, criminal and tyrannical. It has committed acts that are extremely unjust, hideous and criminal whether directly or through its support of the Israeli occupation. (1997)

 

[CarbineCaleb]

Capt: A bit more Bin Laden quotes, these are excerpts taken from an edict which he issued in 1998, calling for attacks against Americans:

"For over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples."

"Despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once again trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation."

"We--with God's help--call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson."

"The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim."

 

[gc70]

Is Islam a religion of peace?

A quick Google search found terrorist incidents since 2000 in the following countries, with the terrorists being identified as shown.

• Muslim - Chechnya, Egypt, India, Indonesia, Iraq, Israel, Kyrgyzstan, Morocco, North Ossetia (former USSR), Palestine, Pakistan, Philippines, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Spain, Sudan, Thailand, Tunisia, Turkey, U.S.A., Yemen
• Marxists - Columbia, Ecuador, Peru, Sierra Leone

Islam may be a religion of peace, but Muslims seem to be responsible for the vast majority of terrorist incidents in recent years.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Sure they are terrorists. That is what we call them from our perspective. They feel like they are freedom fighters. That is their perspective.

As I recall, there was a radical group that before becoming quite well known some 230 years ago also engaged in terroristic acts of violence and intimidation, the most notable early one done while dressed like the local indigenous people so as to not be identified. Their first terroristic act was primarily economic, destroying cargo of considerable value that did not belong to them. Later, said radical terrorists engaged in coninuous acts of sabotage, sniping and guerilla warfare (considered very ungentlemanly, acts of savage desparation), and additional economic destruction so as to effect a political change. Now, we call those folks patriots and many specific ones are known as our Founding Fathers.

What made these folks patriots and not criminal rebels was the fact that they won. It all comes to perspective.

 

[dev_null]

Really? How many of the Founding Fathers were from other countries, slipped clandestinely into the Colonies, and engaged in acts that deliberately murdered civilian noncombatant colonials, simply to blacken King George's eye?

 

[Wraith]

Islam is not a religion of peace. Call it what you will, but a good muslim does not abstain from warfare or the support of those engaging in it. www.prophetofdoom.net

Follow that link. Craig Winn has had over 10,000 hours of study of the Islamic faith and has met with almost every Muslim terrorist group. It would be wise to see what he has to say before casting an ignorant blanket statement as to the peace of Islam. Don't believe him? Look through the quotes section--from the Qur'an, Mohammed, etc...

Qur’an 8:39 “So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.”

Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels out to the last.’”

Qur’an 2:216 “Jihad (holy fighting in Allah’s Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims), though you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and like a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not.” [Another translation reads:] “Warfare is ordained for you.”

Qur’an 4:95 “Not equal are those believers who sit at home and receive no injurious hurt, and those who strive hard, fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause with their wealth and lives. Allah has granted a rank higher to those who strive hard, fighting Jihad with their wealth and bodies to those who sit (at home). Unto each has Allah promised good, but He prefers Jihadists who strive hard and fight above those who sit home. He has distinguished his fighters with a huge reward.”

 

[Destructo6]

I think you lack a mature understanding of what the contributions of historical intellectuals are. It kind of annoys me that you practically mock these immortals - who are you? What contributions have you made to the world that last a decade, let alone 2000 years? We will see how many intellectuals regard your name with reverence, two millennia from today. In fact, one might ask, how many even know of your name today, let alone 2000 years from now when you are dust?

In your assumptions, you are wrong. Galen and Ptolemy are notable for their errors as Copernicus and Vesalius are notable for their corrections to the same.

What, now I need to be an ancient greek to criticize an acient greek? That sounds rather infantile.

 

[CarbineCaleb]

Destructo: I think you need to study English before you study Greek. Your comments seem to be orthogonal to mine, despite the fact that they come in response.

 

[Destructo6]

Try actually reading it this time.

 

[Long Path]

Well, let's see:

"Your religion sux"? Check.

"Attacks on other members"? Check.

More heat than light? Check.

I'm shutting this one down.