Theoretical exercise: Lets design the perfect "serious social" shotgun
- Thread starter Correia
- Start date
Andrew Wyatt
New member
I fail to see how a butt cuff could make the gun stop working.
Another vote for the sxs but designed thusly:
20" barrels, rifle sights, half pistol grip (formally known in the trade as a Prince of Wales grip, informally and coarsely known as the limp d**k grip).
The right barrel would be choked Light Modified. The left barrel would be rifled. The gun would have twin triggers and I could instantly buckshot or a slug. The ammo would be Federal Tactical 00 or 000Buck and Federal Tactical Slugs so I could get the gun with 2-3/4" chambers.
It would be a true sidelock ensuring that should a spring or firing pin break I would have full use of the other barrel. The lock would be made with coil springs which are more reliable. It would be a self-opener for those rapid reloads.
Weight would be around 7lbs and I would have a second barrel, 29 inches choked IC and Mod for upland game hunting. The longer barrels would struck thinner and weigh the same as the shorter tubes to ensure consistent balance.
The gun would come with a custom stock of fancy Turkish walnut with a very slim Silver's recoil pad. It would come in a French-fitted case with all of the accessories including a monogramed, Kevlar-lined, bathrobe with shell loops and a slight recoil pad on the shoulder. Just the ticket for those late night intrusions.
For the truly well-heeled home defender, a matched pair might be in order. You could give one to your wife or, more appropriately, train her to be your loader.
This is not entirely a flight of fancy. Ugartechea in Spain makes a short barrelled rifle-sighted sxs gun for boar hunters. I'm sure they could make a similar barrel set for one of their higher grade sidelocks.
Now, all I have to do is win the lottery.
Paul
20" barrels, rifle sights, half pistol grip (formally known in the trade as a Prince of Wales grip, informally and coarsely known as the limp d**k grip).
The right barrel would be choked Light Modified. The left barrel would be rifled. The gun would have twin triggers and I could instantly buckshot or a slug. The ammo would be Federal Tactical 00 or 000Buck and Federal Tactical Slugs so I could get the gun with 2-3/4" chambers.
It would be a true sidelock ensuring that should a spring or firing pin break I would have full use of the other barrel. The lock would be made with coil springs which are more reliable. It would be a self-opener for those rapid reloads.
Weight would be around 7lbs and I would have a second barrel, 29 inches choked IC and Mod for upland game hunting. The longer barrels would struck thinner and weigh the same as the shorter tubes to ensure consistent balance.
The gun would come with a custom stock of fancy Turkish walnut with a very slim Silver's recoil pad. It would come in a French-fitted case with all of the accessories including a monogramed, Kevlar-lined, bathrobe with shell loops and a slight recoil pad on the shoulder. Just the ticket for those late night intrusions.
For the truly well-heeled home defender, a matched pair might be in order. You could give one to your wife or, more appropriately, train her to be your loader.
This is not entirely a flight of fancy. Ugartechea in Spain makes a short barrelled rifle-sighted sxs gun for boar hunters. I'm sure they could make a similar barrel set for one of their higher grade sidelocks.
Now, all I have to do is win the lottery.
Paul
Andrew Wyatt
New member
I did some more thinking on the subject last night.
I think the first step in designing the perfect surface to surface shotgun is an examination of what exactly the role will be.
since it's useless if you don' take it out and train with it, this shotgun will probably be required to make it through shotgun classes, 3 gun matches, and the like. It'll probably also get used while hunting, in addition to ventilating 2 legged thin skinned air breathers both outside and inside buildings.
as such, it should :
1. have a good sighting system. ghost ring sights, a reflex sight like the ACOG or an eotech holosight with a dual retical for shot and slugs.
2. it should be easy to reload. a detachable magazine would be best, but you can't do ammunition changes very well.
3. ammunition should be readily and easily changed to fit the situation. perhaps a detachable magazine with some kind of "slug port" on the side of the reciever where you can toss a round in that is loaded instead of the rounds in the magazine.
4. it should be compact. since this shotgun is going to be maneuvered inside buildings, it needs to be short enough that you're not banging into things.
5. it needs to be reliable.
6. it needs to be ambidextrous.
7. it either needs to have an adjustable stock or it needs to fit everyone perfectly the stock should have a recoil pad on it that's both effective and is easy to mount. 12 gauge recoil isn't bad if the gun fits you.
8. it should have a capacity comperable to most shotguns today, which is 6-10 rounds.
9. it should have a light on it.
10. it should not weigh more than 9 pounds, and it should have a giles type sling on it.
I think the first step in designing the perfect surface to surface shotgun is an examination of what exactly the role will be.
since it's useless if you don' take it out and train with it, this shotgun will probably be required to make it through shotgun classes, 3 gun matches, and the like. It'll probably also get used while hunting, in addition to ventilating 2 legged thin skinned air breathers both outside and inside buildings.
as such, it should :
1. have a good sighting system. ghost ring sights, a reflex sight like the ACOG or an eotech holosight with a dual retical for shot and slugs.
2. it should be easy to reload. a detachable magazine would be best, but you can't do ammunition changes very well.
3. ammunition should be readily and easily changed to fit the situation. perhaps a detachable magazine with some kind of "slug port" on the side of the reciever where you can toss a round in that is loaded instead of the rounds in the magazine.
4. it should be compact. since this shotgun is going to be maneuvered inside buildings, it needs to be short enough that you're not banging into things.
5. it needs to be reliable.
6. it needs to be ambidextrous.
7. it either needs to have an adjustable stock or it needs to fit everyone perfectly the stock should have a recoil pad on it that's both effective and is easy to mount. 12 gauge recoil isn't bad if the gun fits you.
8. it should have a capacity comperable to most shotguns today, which is 6-10 rounds.
9. it should have a light on it.
10. it should not weigh more than 9 pounds, and it should have a giles type sling on it.
One thing I learned in my not too illustrious career as a soldier is that at night, when people are trying to whack your butt, lights are bad. Last thing you want to do is give away your position to the other side.
I do not understand the fascination with attaching lights to gun barrels.
Would not a remote source of light, controlled by the homeowner, that would illuminate the skell (s) be more efficient and less hazardous.
You know your home and it's layout better than any intruder. Using that knowledge and remote lights to startle him would be much more effective than shining a light on your gun barrel trying to find him in the dark.
And if this scenario unfolds you better be able to shoot instinctively as the ghost ring will take too long to line up.
I do not understand the fascination with attaching lights to gun barrels.
Would not a remote source of light, controlled by the homeowner, that would illuminate the skell (s) be more efficient and less hazardous.
You know your home and it's layout better than any intruder. Using that knowledge and remote lights to startle him would be much more effective than shining a light on your gun barrel trying to find him in the dark.
And if this scenario unfolds you better be able to shoot instinctively as the ghost ring will take too long to line up.
Andrew Wyatt
New member
the main advantage of a light on a gin is it's on the gun, and wherever the gun is, it is. It decreases liability by allowing tou to identify your target before you punch holes in it.
ghost ring sights are just as quick and more precise as a bead, and they offer the ability to hot things with slug at any reasonable range.
ghost ring sights are just as quick and more precise as a bead, and they offer the ability to hot things with slug at any reasonable range.
Benelli M1 Super 90, short barrel (NFA requirements suck), ghost ring sights, sidesaddle (despite so many people repeating that inertia-operated systems don't work with sidesaddles and light mounts, neither me nor any of my friends have ever had any problems with our Benellis with crap hung off of them)...and, my biggest bitch of all about the Benelli, make it with a steel receiver so that it is as tough as an 870.
Al Thompson
Staff Alumnus
Geoff, for military use I tend to agree except for actions on the objective. For civilian use, I( want to see what I'm fixing to center punch.
The first forearm light on an 870 I saw made me giggle. I thought it was a joke. Borrowed it from a buddy and went to sleep. About two in the morning I tried it out on myself. Got up, grabbed the 870 and illuminated my self in the mirror. That Surefire did a good job of blinding me for 20 seconds or so. The new ones are even stronger.
The first forearm light on an 870 I saw made me giggle. I thought it was a joke. Borrowed it from a buddy and went to sleep. About two in the morning I tried it out on myself. Got up, grabbed the 870 and illuminated my self in the mirror. That Surefire did a good job of blinding me for 20 seconds or so. The new ones are even stronger.
K80, despite the pontificating of GSCs your domicile is not a free fire zone. Rule #4--drunken neighbor girls, UPS men, GFs jumping out of closets--need to tell the good guys from Charlie. Or, as TFLer Erich put it, "It's only polite to identify who you are going to shoot."
870 with a decent carry strap set up, rifle sights, 20 inch tube extended mag. KISS right? 12 gauge naturally.
On the other hand, a robust AK action (like a saiga 12) with a tube magazine and an 18 inch barrel would be a kick in the ass. Black composite stock touch enough to club somebody with (if need be), good carry strap, tritium front sight. 12 gauge of course.
On the other hand, a robust AK action (like a saiga 12) with a tube magazine and an 18 inch barrel would be a kick in the ass. Black composite stock touch enough to club somebody with (if need be), good carry strap, tritium front sight. 12 gauge of course.
9mmepiphany
New member
sorry i'm getting into this so late but...
there is alot to recommend the saiga, but...wouldn't the perfect social shotgun be the neostead from south africa
bullpup design for urban/CQB handiness
twin 6 shot magazines with selective feed...slugs or buck?
pump action and downward ejection
now all we need to do is get it imported or manufactured domesticly
there is alot to recommend the saiga, but...wouldn't the perfect social shotgun be the neostead from south africa
bullpup design for urban/CQB handiness
twin 6 shot magazines with selective feed...slugs or buck?
pump action and downward ejection
now all we need to do is get it imported or manufactured domesticly
Andrew Wyatt
New member
bullpups aren't really my favorite design. they leave an awful lot of the shooter exposed when firing around corners, you can't really hang much off them, and the loading port is in a hard to get to place. the neostead has too high of a sight line in relation to it's bore, and the (neostead) sight radius is laughably small.
you also can't chop the stock shorter. if you're not large like the typical south african, you're SOL.
A mossberg, defender, or 870 with a light, sidemount sling, and butt cuff is just the ticket.
you also can't chop the stock shorter. if you're not large like the typical south african, you're SOL.
A mossberg, defender, or 870 with a light, sidemount sling, and butt cuff is just the ticket.
Has anyone but me ever tested weapon mounted lights in force on force? A Surefire may blind you but you KNOW where that friggin light is and it is faster to shoot at or attack (ie rush/charge) the light than it is to ID a target, with weapon mounted light, if your eyes are night adapted in the first place. Remember a goblin isn't concerned about ID of target, everything will be hostile and he can use recon by fire or suppressive fire.
And in a HOME DEFENSE situation your family is probably going to be behind you, so even if goblins shots miss you they may still hit one of yours. The light will only illuminate what it is pointed at but can be seen from anywhere.
If you need light it should be a remote source, ideally somewhere that draws fire AWAY from you for home defense. You can buy little remote switches that use the house wiring to carry signal and set up lamps all thru the house that turn on with one remote switch. Or you can get fancy and get emergency lights that use rechargable batteries but plug into AC that come on when power goes OFF. The advantage is that if power goes out [storm, goblin, fire] the lights come on, the remote switch is left in the on position and switch off to activate emrgency lights.
***
I have found butt cuff with slugs very handy. I keep chamber empty and 7 shot mag loaded with 5 of Fed's low recoil OO buck. If I step outside I usually switch to slug before leaving the house.
IMO the slug is better choice for dealing with big problem like deer, cattle, or other animals that have been hit by car or are trying to attack someone (I live in the country...have one friend that grabbed his SG after the bull tried to gore him). I would use a rifle but I live in the Midwest & we can see the neighbor's house unlike in the West
Also because I live in the country it is more likely that someone shooting at people would be using a SG or 30-30 [2 most common non varmint guns] or maybe a '06
And in a HOME DEFENSE situation your family is probably going to be behind you, so even if goblins shots miss you they may still hit one of yours. The light will only illuminate what it is pointed at but can be seen from anywhere.
If you need light it should be a remote source, ideally somewhere that draws fire AWAY from you for home defense. You can buy little remote switches that use the house wiring to carry signal and set up lamps all thru the house that turn on with one remote switch. Or you can get fancy and get emergency lights that use rechargable batteries but plug into AC that come on when power goes OFF. The advantage is that if power goes out [storm, goblin, fire] the lights come on, the remote switch is left in the on position and switch off to activate emrgency lights.
***
I have found butt cuff with slugs very handy. I keep chamber empty and 7 shot mag loaded with 5 of Fed's low recoil OO buck. If I step outside I usually switch to slug before leaving the house.
IMO the slug is better choice for dealing with big problem like deer, cattle, or other animals that have been hit by car or are trying to attack someone (I live in the country...have one friend that grabbed his SG after the bull tried to gore him). I would use a rifle but I live in the Midwest & we can see the neighbor's house unlike in the West
Also because I live in the country it is more likely that someone shooting at people would be using a SG or 30-30 [2 most common non varmint guns] or maybe a '06Andrew Wyatt
New member
Remote lighting does have it's place in a home defense application, but it is no replacement for a surefire.
Remote lighting costs about twice as much as a single surefire tactical foreend light.
in a home defense situation, my family will be in the same position it'll be in every other situation, which means somewhere at random within the house.
The people tasked with home defense could (when my brother has all three kids over) possibly have to find and dispatch a bad guy in a house with up to seven people in it.
I think you can see the problem.
Andy stanford has a very good book on the subject entitled "fight at night" that's available from paladin press and www'ops.com that explains the situation in more detail.
Remote lighting costs about twice as much as a single surefire tactical foreend light.
in a home defense situation, my family will be in the same position it'll be in every other situation, which means somewhere at random within the house.
The people tasked with home defense could (when my brother has all three kids over) possibly have to find and dispatch a bad guy in a house with up to seven people in it.
I think you can see the problem.
Andy stanford has a very good book on the subject entitled "fight at night" that's available from paladin press and www'ops.com that explains the situation in more detail.
KSFreemen said:
God I wish I had the problem of having to tell the BGs from the "drunken neighbor girls" in my house..... Well there was that one dream.......
Glamdring said:
Yes I did, doing CQB tactics tactics in a paint house. Was againts our CO, XO, and the Gunny. Gunny was laughing at the maglight taped to my paintball gun the whole time...... until we started shooting. He said he was planning to take me out first because the light would be an easy target.... but the second I came around the corner in the dark house all he saw was white... yes his eyes adapted after a few seconds, but by that time he had 2 yellow marks center mass of his chest.
A light can be a great help with proper training, and a pressure switch is almost a must. The trick is not to turn the light on till the last second before you shoot. Don't bop down the stairs shining a light in every direction, but once you see the outline of a person in the light thru a window or such hit it with the light for a split second before you shoot. Helps your aim and target identification.
Only downside I would see would be against multiple BGs, but then a muzzle flash would give your position away too so it can't hurt too much, just remember to turn the light off right after you down the guy, and make sure you don't stand in the same place, move and survey for more targets.
Glamdring, have you ever tried to get a sight picture on someone shining a light at you? Yes you could point and shoot at it, but you could do the same to a muzzle flash or sound.
God I wish I had the problem of having to tell the BGs from the "drunken neighbor girls" in my house..... Well there was that one dream.......
Glamdring said:
Yes I did, doing CQB tactics tactics in a paint house. Was againts our CO, XO, and the Gunny. Gunny was laughing at the maglight taped to my paintball gun the whole time...... until we started shooting. He said he was planning to take me out first because the light would be an easy target.... but the second I came around the corner in the dark house all he saw was white... yes his eyes adapted after a few seconds, but by that time he had 2 yellow marks center mass of his chest.
A light can be a great help with proper training, and a pressure switch is almost a must. The trick is not to turn the light on till the last second before you shoot. Don't bop down the stairs shining a light in every direction, but once you see the outline of a person in the light thru a window or such hit it with the light for a split second before you shoot. Helps your aim and target identification.
Only downside I would see would be against multiple BGs, but then a muzzle flash would give your position away too so it can't hurt too much, just remember to turn the light off right after you down the guy, and make sure you don't stand in the same place, move and survey for more targets.
Glamdring, have you ever tried to get a sight picture on someone shining a light at you? Yes you could point and shoot at it, but you could do the same to a muzzle flash or sound.