Theoretical exercise: Lets design the perfect "serious social" shotgun

Correia

New member
I was giving this some thought today. It seems to me that there are plenty of good home defense (or offense :p ) shotguns on the market. But they all seem to have some trade offs. Most of our fighting shotguns are just modified sporting guns, with a few standard additions.

I'm a huge 870 fan. For simplicty and durability I don't think there is anything out there that even comes close. I love my 870, and I've been using the same gun since I was 12 years old. But at the same time, I've come to recognize that it does have a few weaknesses.

Most of that stems from the fact that it is a basic pump action design. I love pumps, and I can shoot them very fast. But with that said, how many of us have tried to shoot prone with our pump? Or how many of us have had to shoot them from strange positions, around barricades, or from under a car? (ever have the shell fall off the carrier when pumping the gun on its side?)

Also even the best of us can shortstroke a pump. This doesn't happen very often, and I find that it usually only happens to an experienced shotgunner when they are shooting very fast under pressure, or shooting loads that are much hotter than their standard. I've done it myself, and I've seen some really extraordinary shotgunners do it once or twice. Probably not a very big problem overall, but it does happen.

On the other end of the spectrum you have semi-auto shotguns. The most common gas operated guns are the 1100 or 1187. These are softshooting, and usually reliable, but at the same time they have gotten a bad rap for reliability, and they do have a few weak parts (O rings).

The recoil operated guns like the Super 90 or 1201fp tend to have greater felt recoil due to their operation, and sometimes only work well with higher power shells, which can get costly for practice. In their defense, when they work, they work really really well.

And that is just the basic action type. Then we move into how the weapons are sighted, and how they are stocked. We have gotten into this craze that serious shotguns have to have ghost rings sights, so they are better with slugs, but I've seen way to many shooters struggling with them because the sights are too high and they can't get a proper cheek weld on the standard stock. Beads are fast, but imprecise for slugs. So whats the answer? Beats me. :)

The new Benelli M4 has got to have the goofiest stock I've ever seen. But hey, they get points for trying.

So I'm just throwing this out for discussion. Lets start with a clean slate, no preconceived notions about what a scattergun should look like or function like. What do we really want in a fighting shotgun?
 
Theoretically?

1. 100% reliability
2. Unlimited capacity
3. Full, 3 round burst, semi and safe
4. Accurate to 2500 yards or so
5. Will penetrate 1" plate steel but not a bad guy or wallboard
6. Light weight
7. Low cost (gun and ammo)
8. 50-state legal
9. Can stop charging rhino with near-miss
10. Concealable while wearing shorts and t-shirt
11. Durable sights that allow instantaneous sight acquisition.
12. Recoil of .22 LR
13. Fits everyone from 4'0" to 7'5"

Oh wait, you wanted something you could actually use! :)

Actually, the above are the factors, it's just how much of a compromise you can get.

1. Reliability
2. Capacity
3. Cyclic rate
4. Accuracy
5. Enough penetration to do the job but not too much
6. Weight
7. Cost
8. Legality
9. Stopping power
10. Concealability (for those states like PA that allow concealment of SBS)
11. Sighting system
12. Recoil
13. Fit to user

Let's elaborate on a few of these:

1. Reliable. Pump-type reliability in an auto, without short-shucking. I say this means a reliable semi-auto. Inertia autos don't work well when loaded down with accessories. Gas autos don't work well when not maintained -- or if it's a Remington, without that stupid o-ring. My take is to use an inertia-auto and not weigh it down.

2. Capacity: Enough to get the job done -- and also comply with the +1 rule. 5-7 rounds should do it.

3. Not much to be said here.

4. Nice tight buckshot patterns and good slug groupings. Solution? Vang Comp or Patternmaster.

5. Shotgun ammo doesn't need much help here.

6. Weight to fit the user. Lighter is better but means the gun will whomp you harder. Heavier will soak up recoil but is a PITA to lug around. Solution: moderate weight and use a sling!

7. Cheaper is clearly better when it comes to how much money you'd have to spend.

8. Shotguns are already pretty good in this respect, although the 1994 Crime Bill limited some semi-auto shotguns.

9. Shotguns are pretty good here already.

10. Not much of an issue unless you live in a state like PA that allows carry of SBSs.

11. What can you say? Most GRs are durable and allow fast target acquisition. If they are mounted too high, that must be addressed. Now if only we could do some sort of see-through setup like a flat-top AR15 with a EOTech 552 holosight and backup ghost rings. :)

12. Low recoil defensive ammo helps here -- or just go to a 20 gauge.

13. This is really up to the user. Typical line manufacturers will put out the "medium" flavor and it is up to the user to get fit to his or her gun.

Justin
 
Of primary importance is the gunner.

Capacity, keep it topped off.

Reliability from any position, double

All else is a compromise of most of the factors.

Sam
 
personally, I think the perfect shotgun would be an 870,1300, or 500 with a butt cuff, ghost ring sights, a good user to shotgun fit, a small tactical light of some kind, and a good sidemount sling.

a shotgun shouldn't have a bunch of crap hanging off of it.
 
I carried a shotgun in the Marines for 2 years, mine was a Mossberg 590, I actually felt good with a pump, I had very little fear it would fail since it is human powered, you can cycle a pump well past the point of dirt buildup a semi would fail.

Also with most Semis you need to press a button after you top off the rounds to make it load properly (Bernelli, mossberg,...) a pump you can top off easly with no fear of forgeting to press the button. Besides if your in a situation you need to put alot of rounds downrange fast then a shotgun is the wrong tool anyways.
 
Great thread, guys. Justin,good to see you again.

A coupla points....

First, much as I love my 870s, the fighting shotgun of the future will be a semi-auto, for the same reasons our military isn't still using 1903 Springfields.

Second, I see limited military use for the shotgun,so R&D and product development is likely to be police and civilian oriented. IOW, not much in the way of better bayonet lugs.

Third, while much ado has been made about box mags, the tube still is the best approach for compactness and ergonomics.

Fourth, the big reasons shotgun triggers tend towards heaviness, creep and so on are litigation and the simple fact that shotgunners are not demanding good,clean triggers. 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 lbs on a trigger is safe and effective.

Fifth, The modern 12 gauge can be a bit much for some folks to control, so either reduce the gauge, or use a gas venting action to cut kick a bit.

So, here's the Dave McC Signature Model Loudenboomer of the future.

Weight, 7 to 8 lbs empty.

Length, as short as possible(within Fed regs) so 26" minimum, 32" max.

Gauge and shell length, 16-20 gauge, 2 3/4" shells.3" mags not needed for this mission.

Trigger, 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 lbs, with a sear intercepting safety, and possibly a grip safety also.Ambidextrous, of course.

Stock, straight like an AR for better recoil control. This necessitates high sights.LOP,around 12 1/2-13 inches. Good pad, of course.

Action, gas venting.Bullpup style a possibility,
polywhatever or alloy for weight savings.AN accessory rail for red dot sights or scopes.

Barrel, 18 inches, interior threaded for chokes or accessories. Mounted in action as low as possible for straight back recoil. Mount the magazine OVER the bbl.

Forearm, sure gripping surfaces, with accessory rail for mounting lights, lazers, grenade launcher(Sarcasm alert) etc.

Sights, bead with GR option,highly visible in low light and durable.

How's this sound?....
 
I strongly agree with Dave about the 16 to 20 guage. I'd also add that the cartridge shoud be rimless for ease in feeding.

I'd like to see the basic Garand action bumped up a bit to handle the McC Special. I always appreciated the simplicty and speed of the Garand/M14 action.

Would not want the SG much bigger than an M1.

.02$
 
I believe ST came close with their "FBI model." I like the 870 because even morons like me can strip it and replace parts! In addition, I can whack it with a hammer and not hurt it (this is why I carry a 23 oz. framing hammer with me to the gun store--try before you buy).

Whatever magic sword you decide upon you must receive training and practice with it.
 
Dave, here is a question. If the weapon has an AR style stock for recoil control, thereby needing higher sights, would we still want the magazine tube on top of the barrel? This would increase the distance between the sight and barrel quite a bit.

What is the capacity limit on a semi auto with a pistol grip. (damn laws, hard to keep straight). 5+1?

We see arguments about pushbutton safeties vs. Mossberg style safeties, but if a pistol grip is used there is no reason that an ambidextrous AR style safety couldn't be used.

Is being able to switch from pump to semi operation like on the M3 Super 90, or SPAS a good idea?

How about dual switchable magazines? One for slugs, one for buck, and the ability to switch rapidly between them.
 
And KS, I'm not much of a magic sword fan myself. I've got quite a few various guns, but my favorite 3 are my well abused 870, my carry gun 1911 that has been scratched, dented and discolored from sweat, and a FAL built out of spare parts. :) I don't commonly hit any of them with hammers though. :p
 
Putting the mag over the bbl would increase the distance between bore and sights. As long as they're close to parallel and adjustable, no prob.

With the gas system under the bbl, it's more protected.Not by much...

A simple manual of arms beats a complicated one. Let's skip convertability for that reason.

As for dual mags, see above. I've no idea what the Fed limit is, but a single mag on the weapon I've posited here would handle maybe 6+1 at most.

Any situation that won't be handled by 7 rounds of shotgun ammo likely will not be handled by 10 or 20.

And an AR type safety should work well....
 
Ah Phooey!

I believe many of you folks are confusing the typical home defense scenario with those shooting games that have become popular.

The typical HD situation is one perp you have to face down and convince he should be somewhere else. You have no need for ghost rings, side saddles and all the other trinkets the magazines say you need.

A simple SXS with two triggers will do the job nicely. If you can't find one a Pump like the 870 with 20" bbl and no gadgets will do nicely. A defensive firearm that has to be shot a lot has failed in it's mission.

If a dirtbag is standing in your kitchen 8feet from the end of your gun and you need more than two shots you should not be holding a shotgun or any gun for that matter.

A good shotgunner doesn't need sights, not even a bead.

Military shotguns have been very simple SXS and pumps for over a century and have performed adequately.

A shotgun is NOT a rifle and we should stop trying to make rifles out of them. If you need a lot of rounds get an AR or M1 carbine.

K80's rant for this week:D
 
Geoff, ah but what is the fun in that? :)

Come on man, let your imagination run wild. Sure all I need is my trusty 870, but why not have something that can do more? We have the knowledge, we have the skills. Lets build more cool guns.

And I guess I look at this a bit differently in that I compete in 3 gun matches with my home defense gun. Sure I'll probably never need to fire 20 rounds in a standard defensive situation, but it doesn't hurt to have the skills and tools neccesary to do so.

Then again I can put 5 shots on 5 IDPA targets with my 870 in 2.15 seconds. I probably won't ever need to do that in real life either, but it doesn't hurt to have the ability.

So if we practice harder, and work through scenarios more difficult than anything we can reasonably expect to encounter in real life, why shouldn't we have shotguns capable of that same level?

So :p
 
I don't keep my shotgun loaded, so having a butt cuff is ESSENTIAL.
I also think that a shotgun needs to have a low sight axis so there's little descrpeancy between where the sights are pointed and where thst shot hits at close range. having a gun be pump/auto convertable is confusing and makes the gun more fragile. If you need a pump action gun, buy a pump gun.
 
870 Police, sidesaddle full of slugs, tube full of #4 buck and 00. Zippered buttbag/cheekpad (eagle industries rifle bag) stuffed full of more #4 buck allows me to have a grab and go gun with 20+ rounds on it, that's seriously anti-social enough for me. No slings, I'm not patrolling or standing watch. Transitions involve the ever popular extend arm and drop it. If I get a chance to recover it I'm sure it will suffer no ill effects to function during the fall. No lasers, no phasers, no nightvision scopes. The butt bag actually makes the cheekweld much nicer, weight of shells in it dampens recoil (Fiocchi slugs OW!) and the bag supports the underside of my forearm making the gun pretty easy to point and shoot one handed.

If you are ever bored, try tucking one hand in a pocket then load, run, hide, shoot, reload, cycle gun etc. with the free hand. Just when you think you're smart do it with the weak hand. ;)

Right now I can hold 5 slugs in 4-6" (Fiocchi Aeroslugs fly nice! Max dram OW!) rapid fire at 25 yds with the bead sight, certainly MOF (minute of felon) but I think I will try a ring rear and fiberoptic/tritium front, ghostrings work very well for me.

So basically I think I have my perfect serious SG. The chamber is loaded, the tube is loaded, no "scare the felon by racking my pump gun" crap from me. I would like to figure out an external mag cut-off for the 870 so slug/shot selection could be simplified, I can cut the tube off by restraining the shell with my finger and pushing it back until it catches the retainer again, but it takes time and finesse.
 
What is the capacity limit on a semi auto with a pistol grip. (damn laws, hard to keep straight). 5+1?

We see arguments about pushbutton safeties vs. Mossberg style safeties, but if a pistol grip is used there is no reason that an ambidextrous AR style safety couldn't be used.

Is being able to switch from pump to semi operation like on the M3 Super 90, or SPAS a good idea?

How about dual switchable magazines? One for slugs, one for buck, and the ability to switch rapidly between them

Capacity limit under federal law on semi-auto with pistol grip is 5 rounds in the mag tube.

Switching from pump to auto really only matters when using specialty rounds that cannot reliably cycle the semi-auto action (e.g., breaching arounds).

Dual mag tubes might be a good idea (a la the Neostad). The switch-to-slug drill is a PITA.

Justin
 
Bah!

Butt cuffs, Side Saddles, ghost rings!

I prefer the Sicilian Style. A short barreled SXS with a shell belt around the waist. :D

All that other stuff is pure hollywood.

If you want to become proficient. Get a plain Pump and buy ammo, lots of it. The best shotgunners are the ones who shoot, a lot. Found that out the hard way when I was into competition. When I shot 3X+ a week I was a winner. When I stopped they guys who still shot 3X a week left me in the dust.

Stupid trinkets will never replace practice, you can't buy competence with gadgets, only with practice.
 
While competence cannot be purchased with gadgets, there are things you can't do without gadgets ... for example, see in the dark.

Also, remember the +1 rule before you dismiss extra mag capacity or supplemental shell carriers.

Justin
 
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