The weapon of choice employed again?
- Thread starter jimpeel
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No, I cannot see how anyone can view a person that wrote a crazy manifesto, murdered at least two innocent people that had nothing to do with the situation (not even counting the police he murdered) can be viewed as a hero by anyone.
I think one can argue that the way the police handled the end of this was wrong, but I don't think anyone can reasonably argue this guy was a hero.
For the record I am not saying he was a hero. I am just saying that some people thought he was fighting the police because of prejudice. That kind of stuff gets ignored by people it doesnt affect and sometimes it comes back to bite them. Maybe Dorner was a whack job who would have murdered no matter what, idk.
Again I am not saying he was in any way right in what he did.
scrubcedar
New member
One more thing, go back and listen to the second recording again.
There is a sentence where they mention very clearly "blood spatter" in an interior section of the house. If that is true, then there is every possibility this guy was wounded and unable to flee when they set the cabin on fire around him.
The single gunshot mentioned may have been the only out he had.
I for one would really like that looked into further. Burning the house down around a wounded, incapacitated man is despicable in a way that can't be expressed in words.
There is a sentence where they mention very clearly "blood spatter" in an interior section of the house. If that is true, then there is every possibility this guy was wounded and unable to flee when they set the cabin on fire around him.
The single gunshot mentioned may have been the only out he had.
I for one would really like that looked into further. Burning the house down around a wounded, incapacitated man is despicable in a way that can't be expressed in words.
Maybe just me i after what he did i don't have a problem with that. He put himself in that situation his decision. As for the ones not happy with the way the police handled the situation perhaps they could volunteer to go in and talk the guy out in a similar situation. PS I think people should hold of criticising the authorities until the facts of what happened become clear. I am assuming there are investigations and inquests into such incidents in America.
I'vebeenduped
New member
I don't think that it is about the death of this guy bothering anyone. If he burned the cabin down around himself while trying to keep warm, I might even have tried to go and roast marshmallows on it. The problem, the MAJOR problem, is that this was done without due process. If he was actively pointing a rifle at a policeman and they shot him; Hip hip hooray! The bad guy got what was coming. If his weapon had a major malfunction and he blew his own face off; poetic justice. Nobody is saying that he wasn't a danger to anyone. Nobody is even saying he shouldn't have eventually been put to death via electric chair (if they even do that in CA). The police are not the end all of our justice system. They are the beginning of it. If there was a chance, no matter how miniscule, this man could have been taken alive, he should have been. Having said this, if he emerged from the cabin with a weapon, they would have been well within their right to shoot him. However, killing him indiscriminately was wrong. They did not have control over the situation when he died. If he surrendered, there was no way that they could have prevented his death to face a trial.
The biggest shame is that we will probably NEVER be privy to the results or facts of any investigation in to this situation. So, armchair reviewers will forever be wondering. Well, until dinner tomorrow when this has left the general public's minds eye.
The biggest shame is that we will probably NEVER be privy to the results or facts of any investigation in to this situation. So, armchair reviewers will forever be wondering. Well, until dinner tomorrow when this has left the general public's minds eye.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
Is there much to be said, that's new folks?
We are wandering.
We are wandering.
Yahoo News had a little article on the fire for those interested: (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/cause-cabin-fire-fuels-debate-christopher-dorner-standoff-222441723.html)
I think we're all speculating quite a bit, but hopefully more information will come out.
I think we're all speculating quite a bit, but hopefully more information will come out.
scrubcedar
New member
Manta, part of our laws forbid "cruel and unusual punishment". By the spirit of the law, and maybe by the letter of the law, they completely crossed the line there.
If you know he is wounded, what's wrong with waiting at a safe range and seeing if his wound doesn't change his mind about surrendering?
Yes, if you handed me a bullhorn and said, "If you don't go and try to talk this out of here, we're going to burn him to death, and Oh, by the way he's wounded and can't run away." I would do my best, no matter who it was, to try to talk him out even if he might shoot at me. I really think you would probably do that too.
If this guy went to trial, was convicted, then sentenced to death I wouldn't have even one problem. The manner of his death is what bothers me. No judge, no jury, what amounted to a legal lynch mob determining what the proper course was is the problem.
I'm really worried that none of this is going is going to be closely examined because he's dead and there seems to be very little outcry.
If you know he is wounded, what's wrong with waiting at a safe range and seeing if his wound doesn't change his mind about surrendering?
Yes, if you handed me a bullhorn and said, "If you don't go and try to talk this out of here, we're going to burn him to death, and Oh, by the way he's wounded and can't run away." I would do my best, no matter who it was, to try to talk him out even if he might shoot at me. I really think you would probably do that too.
If this guy went to trial, was convicted, then sentenced to death I wouldn't have even one problem. The manner of his death is what bothers me. No judge, no jury, what amounted to a legal lynch mob determining what the proper course was is the problem.
I'm really worried that none of this is going is going to be closely examined because he's dead and there seems to be very little outcry.
Evan Thomas
Inactive
YES, YES, YES. I also noticed that "blood spatter" remark and found the implications appalling. Mr. Dorner was a human being, and surely didn't deserve that. No sentient being deserves that.scrubcedar said:
Imagine a civilian, in a self-defense case, saying "I had to burn the house down around him to make sure he was no longer a threat." Any bets on how well that works out?
The fact that Mr. Dorner became some sort of internet cult figure has absolutely no bearing on whether the police intentionally set fire to that cabin, or, if they did, whether they were justified in so doing. This is a society that has always been prone to hero-worship of outlaws, for complex reasons that have been thoroughly studied.
But that's beside the point. It's also a society whose members are increasingly willing to accept that, at least in some cases, due process is no longer necessary, or even desirable. (Around half of Americans surveyed in recent polls approve of drone strikes against American citizens who are alleged to be terrorists.)
People here like to mouth platitudes about the Second Amendment's being the one that protects the other amendments, but in practice, that doesn't seem to be working too well. We are increasingly willing to say that it's fine to ignore Constitutional protections of life and liberty if that keeps "us" safer.
I guess it depends what we mean by safety...
Don't get me wrong i am against the death penalty. But this guy showed he had no problem murdering and was proficient with firearms so if it was me i woldent be taking any chances. If he was surrounded he should be given a chance to surrender but if he started shooting then he should be stopped without endangering as much as possible the police officers. I think people should be happy he was stoped before he had the opportunity to murder anyone else.
PS What sometimes happens the focus is on the perpetrator rather than the victims. I have seen it happening here.
No, the focus isn't on the perpetrator rather than on the victims.
The focus is on abuses of the system, by those who are supposed to enforce the rules.
Dorner was contained in an isolated cabin. There was no pressing need to take him down NOW NOW NOW. If the police thought there were hostages in danger, then obviously setting the house on fire was a bad tactic. If the police had confirmed there were no other persons in the house, then so long as containment was set, there was no need to rush.
If there was concern about gunfire from the house, then all they had to do was pull the cordon further back, and set barricades outside effective range.
The actions they actually took were indicators of police officers who had every intention of killing, not of making an arrest.
These were not actions that any of us regular citizens could take, with any hope of avoiding extremely long prison sentences.
The focus is on abuses of the system, by those who are supposed to enforce the rules.
Dorner was contained in an isolated cabin. There was no pressing need to take him down NOW NOW NOW. If the police thought there were hostages in danger, then obviously setting the house on fire was a bad tactic. If the police had confirmed there were no other persons in the house, then so long as containment was set, there was no need to rush.
If there was concern about gunfire from the house, then all they had to do was pull the cordon further back, and set barricades outside effective range.
The actions they actually took were indicators of police officers who had every intention of killing, not of making an arrest.
These were not actions that any of us regular citizens could take, with any hope of avoiding extremely long prison sentences.
Evan Thomas
Inactive
Yes, and many have, which is why lethal injection (which has its own, major problems) is now the method of choice in many states.
The death penalty itself is problematic in that regard.
We don't really electrocute people here any more.. (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/09/us/09penalty.html)
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